[Discussion] Patch 6.2 PTR

[Mortiferus]

Which simcraft build are you using?

612-03, but your question made me realize that I have no clue which PTR build data is in there. I may just wait for things to settle down a bit before I start looking at scale factors in depth. Either way, appreciate all the work Komma and you put into this stuff.

[Frosted]

Did you get the latest one from here?

http://downloads.simulationcraft.org/?C=M;O=D" target="_blank
The one from may 28th should be ok. (and should let you use those profiles I linked too)

I would certainly recommend to wait until closer to launch for scale factor stuff. (at least, for looking at them if you're interesting in knowing them for 6.2 launch). Too many changes can still occur, I think. Both to mages, and our items, that can shift things around right now.

For example, they still have not balanced our class trinket yet which they said they will be doing. So that is a factor that we know is changing, and could have a significant impact on scale factors depending on what they do.

[Mortiferus]

Did you get the latest one from here?

http://downloads.simulationcraft.org/?C=M;O=D" target="_blank
The one from may 28th should be ok. (and should let you use those profiles I linked too)

Ah, didn't know that. I'll hijack your profiles and just update the belt. Thanks again!

[wolsku]

So now that we've got our set bonuses -almost- out of the way, shouldn't we pay attention back at Archimonde's trinket ? Because let's be honest, the fire spec one is pretty bad, way too low proc-rate and way too little damage from flamestrike to be worth it. The arcane one might be of some use but since it only impact Arcane Blast, using Missiles isn't really putting it to good use. Am i the only one feeling this way ?

[Imnick]

The Arcane one, if I remember correctly, was simming very very well.
The others, well...

What I'm not sure about is if I automatically want the spec-based trinket to be the automatic BiS for every spec. It makes sense, but then at the same time, then what's the point of all the other trinkets? There's some nice ones in there, and I don't particularly like the idea of one of your two slots being autolocked (though we already have that problem with the legendary ring).

[Meziskari]

I think its fair to not want the spec trinkets to be BiS for everyone, but I don't think its right for some of them to be flat out awful too. I don't know exactly how bad Fire's is, but I wouldn't be surprised if any trinket from HM/BRF would be better. There's no reason for it to be as bad as it is.

[Zelendria]

The Arcane one, if I remember correctly, was simming very very well.
The others, well...

What I'm not sure about is if I automatically want the spec-based trinket to be the automatic BiS for every spec. It makes sense, but then at the same time, then what's the point of all the other trinkets? There's some nice ones in there, and I don't particularly like the idea of one of your two slots being autolocked (though we already have that problem with the legendary ring).

Isn't that the case now as the Blackhand trinket is BiS for both specs. It's only the Goren and Darmac one that gets swapped in and out.

Just like to echo what others said with a thanks to raising the issues with the old tier bonuses

[Imnick]

I think its fair to not want the spec trinkets to be BiS for everyone, but I don't think its right for some of them to be flat out awful too. I don't know exactly how bad Fire's is, but I wouldn't be surprised if any trinket from HM/BRF would be better. There's no reason for it to be as bad as it is.

That's a good point yeah. It shouldn't necessarily be BiS, but ideally every trinket should at least be better than every trinket from BRF.

[Dizzeeyooo]

Isn't that the case now as the Blackhand trinket is BiS for both specs. It's only the Goren and Darmac one that gets swapped in and out.

I believe the blackhand trinket is only BiS for fire on fights where you are lusting on the pull / short fights generally - you get a larger opening ignite with faster globals from the haste trinket without lust then you do from the additional multistrike but slower globals

[Frosted]

I made the fire mage trinket not worthless!

100% proc rate! Twelve sustained targets for the entire fight! Finally beats normal mode trinkets.

[Imnick]

clearly what it needs to do is cast three flamestrikes in an overlapping triangular pattern, instead of just one

[recom]

It needs to do something to the target. Fire doesn't need more aoe.

[wolsku]

Imo it should spread our ignite twice ... ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

[Methusula]

That would be broken and amazing. Or something like: Casting Inferno Blast doubles the current value of Ignite for 2 seconds. That could help with single target, but would break aoe and cleave.

[Preheat]

Although it'll probably be our BiS, Archimonde trinket won't really be over-the-top good until we get our rings. It's still competitive though.

DPS Ranking:
650225 100.0% Raid
92275 14.2% T18M_Arcane_UM_ROP_PC_ring_sync_Beam_Arch
87750 13.5% T18M_Arcane_SN_ROP_PC_ring_sync_Beam_Arch
87535 13.5% T18M_Arcane_SN_ROP_PC_ring_sync_Doom_Beam
86187 13.3% T18M_Arcane_UM_ROP_PC_ring_sync_Doom_Beam
75095 11.5% T18M_Arcane_SN_ROP_PC_Beam_Doom
74834 11.5% T18M_Arcane_UM_ROP_PC_Beam_Arch
74172 11.4% T18M_Arcane_UM_ROP_PC_Beam_Doom
72378 11.1% T18M_Arcane_SN_ROP_PC_Beam_Arch

[Caimion]

Did you check UM_ROP_OP? I was under the impression that OP outperformed PC before we got our rings.

[Frosted]

it doesn't.

[Komma]

Lately, I've been hearing a lot of folks say "700+ Fire spec is best spec for everything". Some say they heard it from streams, some say they heard it from Friends, some say it's from raid testing. A lot of Mages are following this advice to play Fire only. I think this is misinformation.

Yes, Fire is strong. It is especially strong in sustained AOE. In single target, it depends on set bonuses. With 2T17, you get very strong single target damage, very high variance, and a chance to get rank 1 parses if you get favorable RNG. Without 2T17, it's basically the same as we saw in Highmaul - above average sustained single target and medium variance. In other words, the 10-15% single target gain from 2T17 is what boosted Fire's single target from above average to top-line. That said, the average case is still lower than Arcane, regardless of gear level. Without 2T17, this gap grows even larger.

Single target 6.1 T17M simulations, 300 seconds, 0.1% target error. 2T17 shows a 11% gain over 0T17, much higher than most set bonuses in game.

Single target 6.1 T17M simulations, 300 seconds, 0.1% target error. Fire has nearly double the variance of Arcane.

Fire's T18 bonuses are pretty good for single target, at 4-6% each. But that isn't comparable to what we lose from not having 2T17, especially for short duration fights where the opening Combustion counts for a lot.

For a while on 6.2 PTR, Intuition's Gift was an overbudget, incorrectly itemized, overly synergistic trinket. Using it, Fire was a top performing spec for raid testing. Intuition's Gift was offering 40%+ DPS increases due to synergy with Prismatic Crystal and Combustion - more than 3 times that of any other trinket in game. The trinket has been nerfed heavily, and no longer usable by Mages. This means that Fire isn't nearly as strong as it was in raid testing.

As a result of losing 2T17 and not having Intuition's Gift, I see no reason to believe that Fire will be ahead of Arcane or Frost on single target. You can easily test this yourself on PTR; Arcane and Frost have very strong single target damage from target dummy testing right now, even with Arcane's set bonuses being undertuned. If someone wants to make a case for how and why they think Fire will be the top single target spec, I hope they have a better argument than just "<famous player> said Fire is top spec on stream" or "#1 parse on WCL is Fire".

[Zifnab]

If someone wants to make a case for how and why they think Fire will be the top single target spec, I hope they have a better argument than just "<famous player> said Fire is top spec on stream" or "#1 parse on WCL is Fire".

This is the conclusion I came to after a non-mage in guild said something along the lines of "isn't fire the best single-target spec when you get past ilvl 700?" I found this to be a dubious claim at best, and was unable to find any compelling evidence that it was the case (Besides there being a few fire mages among the top parses on WCL).

I think fire has a higher variance than arcane does, and believe that can be attributed to why the *top* parses will go to fire. But if you average out your fights using sims I'm just not seeing it.

Thanks for coming up with a reliable source I can point to when someone mentions it again, Komma.

I've actually never used PC for fire, because I've never used fire for single-target. The duration on PC and the unreliability of setting up a combustion proc always made me wary of trying. I was going to give it a shot this week on mythic blackhand just to see the performance, but with your post I think I'll skip it entirely.


On another note, I've seen a lot of *different* parses for trinket scaling in this thread, and I'm not sure what to make of it. It seems the consensus is that the archimonde fire trinket is terrible. But from what I've seen, the Mythic crit trinket from BRF looks... like it's among the top two contenders for all available trinkets in the coming patch? Did I see that wrong? If I have the 706 ilvl crit trinket, am I ever going to want to replace that this patch?

[Griepen]

I know this is no where near enough data to prove anything, but on Socrethar mythic testing fire was feeling really strong single-target. https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/Kd ... ne&fight=9" target="_blank
I am sure arcane would pull slightly ahead on pure single target, but I feel that fire will be the overall mainspec of 6.2. Again, just feeling and anecdotal evidence.

This is in t18 with 720 ilvl scaling.