Arcane T17 Bonuses

[Zyjax]

Greetings,

I've been reading those forums for a while but it's the first time I'll actually post something.

Am I the only one extremely annoyed by the 2-Piece bonus? I mean, I don't even need/do Burn Phase, I never liked spamming Arcane Blasts and that's a gameplay I wouldn't like to go, but the 2-Piece bonus basically FORCES us to go Mana Burn and be able to use that buff to Arcane Blast.

What are the thoughts on that? Anyone else annoyed that they're forcing Arcane Mages to do a burn phase or just me?

The 4-Piece bonus is nice, the 2-Piece bonus for other specs is amazing, mainly Fire, but the Arcane one, it pretty much puts me down.

[TLTeo]

If you aren't using burn phases you are playing the spec very, very incorrectly, so no i really don't see what the problem is. Except for MoP mana management has been a key mechanics for Arcane ever since TBC, and i don't see any problems with that.

Not to mention, burn phases do not involve spamming AB only.

[Zyjax]

I opted to play with Arcane Orb and no burn phases and so far it has actually amplified my damage. I know it's not just AB spam but that's most of it, I've been playing Arcane for years now... It's not a matter of correctly playing Arcane or not, it's just I never liked the Burn Phase lol, so I opted to stay out of it in a way I would not lose dps. So far it has worked fine, but then when the 2-Piece comes around I'll be forced to do Mana Burn or I'll just lose the bonus.

The T17 2-Piece bonus has basically no benefits for one who doesn't do a Burn Phase. I'd like to know what the others think about it... Meanwhile, Frost and Fire received good bonuses which won't force them to change the rotation so heavily. I can say it really put me down. ;/

[Bashlow]

You could just waste 1 GCD to get the buff by using Evo ^^

[Zyjax]

/cast Evocation
/stopcasting

Wouldn't be a bad idea, but considering the buff is towards Arcane Blast only I don't think it could have many benefits to just use Evocation for the buff without a real purpose. It's 1GCD so I could at least get to 80% mana before Evocating and then recovering to 100% lol... But I'll look into that. The buff would be best suited during burning phase than actually after, I'm still trying to connect the dots there.

[Imnick]

The burn phase is not meant to be optional, so Blizzard is not going to design set bonuses with people who do not use it in mind. There isn't really a lot more that can be said about it honestly, it would be like being upset at the Fire bonus because you don't like casting Inferno Blast.

Nobody is receiving a set bonus that "forces them to heavily change their rotation", they are all receiving set bonuses that expect them to be using their spells. There simply isn't a way to totally ignore an Arcane burn phase without losing DPS.


If you wish to play this way it is your choice, but to be upset that Blizzard are not designing for players who intentionally play sub-optimally is not very productive. You are going to be disappointed often.

[Zyjax]

That's relative. In MoP we didn't need to stick to Mana burn. Then in WoD they added Improved Arcane Blast, which points that way... Then Improved Arcane Power... Now the 2-Piece set bonuses, which pretty much are 3 signs for you to get into a Burn Phase.

It's not that I'm not playing optimal, but everyone has their play styles, I am always #1-#3 DPS in raids with people of same gear level as me, obeying mechanics and such... Always trying to know more about my class. I used to be a Mana Burn adept at the start of WoD but never stopped looking for ways I could avoid using it. Found one which is not a dps loss.

You basically confirmed my point. Inferno Blast is a very important part of the rotation, can't be skipped. Mana Burn can, and a player can do fine without it. Taking it from such perspective, Blizzard basically "buffed" Ice and Fire when using 2-Piece bonus but "nerfed" Arcane to players who don't do a Burn Phase.

I can simply start doing Burn Phases, I plan to now that everything's going that way... I will have to. However, I don't like it and wouldn't want to start doing it. I'd like to be able to play without ever pressing Evocation and that's not the way Blizzard wants us it seems... That's what gets me a bit down.

[TLTeo]

You can't say "i found this way to play without burn phase and dps losses" without any data whatsoever to back it up, other than your own success with it. If all you are doing is using AO on every fight, then you are most definitely losing dps.

[Imnick]

In MoP the burn phase was not optimal or intended by Blizzard. In WoD, that has changed. The Burn phase is now expected to be core to the arcane mage, to the extent that we are the only mage spec with access to Evocation.
If the Burn phase was not meant to be integral, the spell would simply have been removed from everyone.

Inferno Blast is an important part of the rotation and can't be skipped, and so is burning mana. You will not be fine without it! You will do significantly less damage!
The fact that you are within the top percentage of your own raid group means very little, if that's true then they are probably playing sub-optimally as well.
I'm sorry that it conflicts with your play style, but there is really no other way to say it than your playstyle is not a supported one and hasn't been for this whole expansion. It's as well supported by Blizzard as Inferno-free Fire, or Only Frostbolt Frost (as we almost approached at the end of MoP). As in... not supported at all.


I want to repeat that I have no issue with you playing however you want and I'm glad you're in a guild that supports your choices, but expecting Blizzard to take you into account is folly.
They clearly have a vision for the spec and your interpretation clearly isn't involved.
You playing with no burn phase really is no more viable now than it would be with your tier bonus (either using one GCD to activate the buff or burning to 80% and using the buff (though if you're going to do that, might as well just play the spec properly), either would work and neither would be optimal), if you don't care about DPS to the extent that you can skip something so important, you might as well just keep going as you are.

[Shinobars]

It's not that I'm not playing optimal, but everyone has their play styles, I am always #1-#3 DPS in raids with people of same gear level as me, obeying mechanics and such... Always trying to know more about my class. I used to be a Mana Burn adept at the start of WoD but never stopped looking for ways I could avoid using it. Found one which is not a dps loss.

Do you have any logs of your fights where you avoid a burn phase? Not hating on your play style, I'm genuinely curious as to your mana management, spell usage, and overall damage. I'd like to compare your logs to some others and see if I can improve my own conserve-phase game through your experience, if you don't mind.

[Zyjax]

Well, constructive feedback coming up, thanks.

Actually, I do care about my DPS and it's one of the main reasons I decided to not use Evocation. RIGHT NOW a Mana Burn phase can be useful, but what once we can actually reach 80-90% Mastery like I was(97%) at the end of MoP? A Burn Phase will decrease your mastery bonuses by basically 50% while you can keep it at 100% if you conserve your mana. Right now it doesn't mean as much because we don't have gear for high Mastery Yet, but it will mean a lot later on. I do intend on playing with Mana Burn, I just do NOT like it.

@Shinobars, I don't keep logs or anything but I don't use Mana Burn for about a month now, if not more.

From the feedback I'm getting here, I'm doing a "pure conserve phase" amazingly well, which means if I start to use Burn Phase again my dps is meant to skyrocket considering it's already high while conserving only.

Again, I don't LIKE using Burn Phase, but I will have to anyways. I still have doubts if it's going to be optimal in like 6 months though.

[Chev]

Well you have started a popular topic.

I respect that you have chosen your play style and it works for you so I wont say you are wrong. This is a game after all. However, I will say you can't complain a set bonus doesn't suit your chosen play style when you know you are in a minority when it comes to play styles. That is kind of like someone who wants to play Blood DK as a DPS spec and then complaining it is not viable compared to the Frost and Unholy DPS specs.

I would also ask if you are not worried about the damage bonus / increase you are missing out on by not using the burn play style, why are you worried about missing out on the the damage you will get from the 2 set? Below the results showing the difference between burning and not burning as well as when you have the 2 / 4 set bonuses.



As you can see, using the burn phase adds about ~5% DPS when compared to a non-burn rotation with a similar set combination. The 2 set offers no benefit when not burning (as you said) but with burning, the 2 set adds around 2.5% DPS. This means you are complaining about losing 2.5% DPS when you are happy to miss out on an extra 5% by your chosen play style.

[Zyjax]

I'm pretty happy about all the feedback being given here. Thanks for that.

So in a total I would lose 7.5% DPS considering perfect situations for my DPS setup, but then the 2-Piece set bonuses will still go against another wall, I use Arcane Orb to build at least 2 charges. Which means I'll just use the bonus for... 3 seconds, theoretically speaking.

After all, it seems if I want to be on par with the other Mages I will have to make use of Burn Phase otherwise I will lose considerable dps. This, in my point of view, negates "uniqueness". I'd love to make my char different from the others of the same class/spec without losing something in exchange, guess Blizzard won't allow it to happen.

I still think, however, that the 2-Piece bonus from Arcane is not as good as Fire/Frost ones. A bonus we'll get every 1.5m while they'll get bonuses every seconds... Another Inferno Blast, that's a very nice bonus. I do respect people's different opinions on that though.

[Imnick]

The Arcane 2 set bonus listed there is a DPS increase of ~2.5%, which seems reasonable for a 2 set bonus.
It isn't activated constantly, but it has a correspondingly greater effect by allowing you to stretch your conserve phase further.

I am also not sure why you are saying "The Fire and Frost bonuses are both considerably better because of their frequency" when the Frost one is tied to Frozen Orb, a spell with a cooldown only 30 seconds shorter than that of Evocation. Most mages, using Prismatic Crystal, won't even use it on cooldown because they need to tie it to the cooldown of PC, which is identical to the one of Evocation!
That's definitely not "every few seconds", nor is the Fire one honestly. Having two inferno blasts is useful, but each is worth significantly less of a DPS boost than a Frost Mage's Ice Lance or the damage bonus we will be getting to Arcane Blast.

Remember, the bonus isn't "You can cast Fire Blast twice" but rather "You can save a second Fire Blast".
You aren't actually getting more Inferno Blasts (or, not a lot more), the cooldown remains unchanged, it just lets you use them at a better time (or, according to current theorycrafting, to do silly things with duplicating ignite. But that's probably going to get hotfixed ).

[Zyjax]

Yeah yeah. "You can save a second Inferno Blast", that's the way I thought. And I can see it being used to many greater effects... Pretty eager on that if you ask me.

This thread has developed into a lot of useful information. Keep it coming at me because I'm ready for it, lol.

[Valounette]

Erm you say you like 'uniqueness' without losing anything. But, you do clearly lose something. You lose the dps shown in the sims above. And the loss isn't actually that much, it's way higher, since you're using Arcane orb on every fight, i.e. you lose out on fights which favour other talents.

When last simming the talent selections for single target, you're easily losing 1-2k by always using Arcane Orb on some fights.

There is a reason optimal rotations are optimal.

The way you defend your choice of talent/rotation as more dps 'for yourself' only tells me/us that you need to work on your Evocation cooldown/timings better, since it is in fact higher.

As for comments on being unique, and this is just my opinion:

There are many thousands of careless/bad/sloppy/lazy/sub-optimal/yolo players out there. From the sounds of it, you do care about your Mage... but your arguments are pretty irrational which dumps you into the aforementioned group of players. I say this because you seem to care a lot about 'uniqueness'

To me, a unique player is one who plays exceptionally. Such players are rare. There are... so many players who play sub-optimally.

The ironic part is that if you did prove to us that not burning, and using Arcane orb, or whatever were higher DPS, we would all do that, and your rotation is no longer unique. i.e. the highest yielding DPS rotation is unique in itself. i.e. practice your Evocation!

Food for thought. No personal attacks intended, just how I view this thread

[Zyjax]

Fair enough! I'm always available to try new rotations and talents, and it seems I'll have to become a Mana Burn adept again to be able to survive dealing more damage.

[Mevlin]

Interesting and informative thread.

In my opinion, I find that the mana burn phase is considerably less fun than the conserve phase. Therefore I completely understand someone who is trying to create a rotation that is purely conserve. And it would be great if both rotations are supported by Blizzard but I imagine that would be a nightmare. I believe that everything needed to be said has been said, but I just wanted to add that, on the bright side, at least both set bonuses are linked to the more fun phase of our rotation. Also, the awesomeness of the Arcane Missiles graphics was the only reason I rolled arcane and I can't wait to watch them go crazy this tier.

One thing I would like to complain, and I assume some people would disagree, is how tier bonuses do not change our rotation whatsoever. I liked how T16 changed our rotation a little bit. Fire and Frost both have a slight increase in complexity after obtaining set bonuses, and I wish that it was also true for Arcane.

[Berlinia]

One misconception, higher mastery rating doesnt mean higher loss due to burning. The relatie %loss of madtery gain remains the same at all mastery ratings

[Zyjax]

@Berlinia

That's something I didn't know, I'll look into that a bit further.

@Mevlin

You deserve a prize. You got my point perfectly. And I also think they could change the rotation a bit. I personally see a much better opening to Fire now but besides that the rotation is the same. Item procs tend to happen at the start of the fights, if this remains true for set bonuses (it happens for the Ring proc) then at the start of the fight we'll have a proc for 4 instant Pyroblasts and then the rest of our Ignite stacking rotation before releasing Combustion and rocking it with the massive Ignite damage. Can't wait for it. I think Fire will actually be a bit overpowered, can't confirm though, just a theory. I'll wait and see.