[TC] 4T17 Proc Rate is Working as Intended

[Komma]

Every since patch 6.1 launched, I've seen a lot of players complain about how the 4T17 set bonus (Pyromaniac) doesn't proc on pull. Some players even go as far as to question whether it is bugged. No, it is not bugged. Not proccing during the opening moments of a boss fight is completely expected, according to current mechanics. The rest of this post is meant to explain why.

To understand what happened, we first need an understanding of how RPPM proc mechanics work. Hamlet of <Elitist Jerks> has written a number of brilliant blog posts explaining RPPM, so I will instead refer to his work:
http://iam.yellingontheinternet.com/201 ... ased-buff/" target="_blank
http://iam.yellingontheinternet.com/201 ... nced-rppm/" target="_blank

In March 2013, a change was made to RPPM trinkets so they would have "bad luck protection" (BLP). This meant that trinkets would have a further increased chance to proc, if the last successful proc was a long duration ago. This details were contained in the following blue post by Nethaera: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/8197741003" target="_blank
The post explains how RPPM proc chances are multiplier by the following value:

Code: Select all

MAX(1, 1+((TimeSinceLastSuccessfulProc/AverageProcInterval)-1.5)*3)

Notably, this formula says that BLP only starts taking effect after the player's last successful proc was more than 1.5 times the average proc interval. Keep this in mind, as it will be important later.

Another separate change, made in July 2013, was intended to make RPPM effects proc more often on pull. This was intended to fix issues such as players not participating in clearing trash, just to make sure their trinkets would be ready for the boss. This was detailed in a blue post by Lore which is no longer accessible, but MMO-Champion still retains a copy in their blue tracker: http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/2653 ... mechanics/" target="_blank
Lore's post includes an important detail: On Boss pulls, "time since last proc" for RPPM effects are set to 120 seconds. This is again an important detail.

In patch 6.1, the 4T17 set bonus was nerfed from 1.0 RPPM to 0.7 RPPM. These values correspond to average proc intervals of 60 seconds and 85.7 seconds respectively. Using the formula from the first change, this implies that BLP will kick in at 90 seconds and 128.57 seconds respectively. Since bosses reset your "time since last proc" to exactly 120 seconds, this implies that BLP used to be active on the pull, but the nerf has changed it to inactive on the pull. Combining this with the straight forward nerf to the RPPM value, and we now see a greatly diminished proc chance within the opening moments of a fight.

Given how Blizzard is very aware of exactly how RPPM works, it is hard to imagine that this is unintended or unforeseen. On paper, Fire's set bonuses still rank among the strongest ones across classes, despite having a number of usability concerns. This leads me to think that Blizzard is unlikely to make any changes to address these quality of life annoyances. Most likely, fellow pyromaniacs will just have to tough it out.

TL;DR: 4T17 no longer proccing on the pull is not a bug.

[Komma]

I've been notified that I missed the note at bottom of the blue tracker, where Lore says they adjusted the "time since last proc" reset to 120 seconds. Amending the thread to fix this.

[Sheepeater]

Changing it to not benefit from bad luck protection doesn't prevent it from proccing at the start of the fight. So, now rather than having this consistent, amazing burst damage on the pull, you'll get lucky and only sometimes have the amazing burst damage on the pull.

The problem wasn't the _likelihood_ of the proc occurring, it was the _magnitude_ that the effect could have in optimal situations.

Rather than this solution which makes the spikes less frequent, I would much rather have seen a change that made the spikes less severe. Example: proc rate stays the same (hell could even increase it to give it more impact on playstyle), but pyroblasts during pyromaniac don't generate any ignite damage, thus removing the spike caused by the synergy with combustion but still providing a damage boost.

[TLTeo]

That would have made 4the set absolutely terrible, and potentially even a dps loss at least for the first proc on pull. Combustion with trinkets+ring+tw is absolutely huge for fire st.

[Bashlow]

I dont get why it sometimes proccs 2 or 3 times in a row (without any other spell for a GCD used), also saw it proccing 4 times in a row on Rikhs stream once...

[Stressball]

I dont get why it sometimes proccs 2 or 3 times in a row (without any other spell for a GCD used), also saw it proccing 4 times in a row on Rikhs stream once...

That's just the way RPPM works. The chances of it machine gun proccing like that are extremely low, but it is possible. Theoretically it's possible to have 100% uptime (once you gain your first PB!), but the odds on it are so incredibly low it's not realistically possible.

RPPM procs can be a lot of fun because they are unpredictable and can result in very high uptimes, but they can be equally frustrating when they only proc a couple times and never when you need them.

[Frosted]

Changing it to not benefit from bad luck protection doesn't prevent it from proccing at the start of the fight. So, now rather than having this consistent, amazing burst damage on the pull, you'll get lucky and only sometimes have the amazing burst damage on the pull.

The problem wasn't the _likelihood_ of the proc occurring, it was the _magnitude_ that the effect could have in optimal situations.

Rather than this solution which makes the spikes less frequent, I would much rather have seen a change that made the spikes less severe. Example: proc rate stays the same (hell could even increase it to give it more impact on playstyle), but pyroblasts during pyromaniac don't generate any ignite damage, thus removing the spike caused by the synergy with combustion but still providing a damage boost.

It was never a 100% chance to proc on the pull to begin with. It was more around 45%. That's not what I'd call "consistent"

This suggested changes makes absolutely no sense, and would be a complete departure from anything we've seen in the game before in terms of what a set bonus does.

[Sheepeater]

This suggested changes makes absolutely no sense, and would be a complete departure from anything we've seen in the game before in terms of what a set bonus does.

*shrug* brainstorming is brainstorming. Not every idea is a winner.

As for being a departure from anything seen in the game before, I'm not entirely in agreement. Set bonuses have evolved quite a bit over 17+ iterations. We've gone from something like "you generate less threat" to procs and mechanic changes that alter the player's normal actions. Sure, bonuses so far have been almost purely additive up to this point, but then again, dot-weaving shadow priests had never been seen in the game before until a developer added it.

Also, find me another set bonus that has such an enormous damage swing when a player is lucky vs. unlucky. If we're talking about unprecedented behaviors, I nominate the existing fire set bonus mechanics.

[leemoemoe]

So practicing fire openings on dummies seems to be very misleading.
On dummies, I always have my 4pc proc on my first or second Pyro!. (No rppm reset?)
But this almost never happens on bosses after the nerf.

[Frosted]

Dummies do not reset RPPM after combat ends.

[Emmerde]

As far as I remember, 4pc wasn't that much of a dps gain over 2pc. Now, on top of everything, it's been nerfed. Does it mean that 4pc now gives almost nothing but headache even on paper? Especially for ppl like me who have decent non-set gear (BRF H/HWF + sockets) and 2 normal set pieces with non-bis stats.

[TLTeo]

It's still one of the strongest set bonuses, and before the nerf it was pretty overpowered. I'm not sure where you got "it's not a dps gain" from, but it's not correct.

[Emmerde]

It's still one of the strongest set bonuses, and before the nerf it was pretty overpowered. I'm not sure where you got "it's not a dps gain" from, but it's not correct.

Only T17 helmet has crit+mastery on it, any other piece does not, as far as I remember. You definately lose some dps out of that, since with 2pc you don't need 750 +- haste cap. With 2pc and proper stats you have absolutely no problem with building 3 pyros + meteor combustion, it goes with almost 100% chance (if performed correctly), and your proper stats are much higher since you don't waste them. What's better - desperately fishing for some 4sec random proc or getting guaranteed 3 pyro + meteor chain, with nice preparation and decent timing? Even if it's a tiny dps loss on paper.

On top of that, it's much easier to obtain non-set pieces (even warforged and with socket items) since many gear competitors have 4set and won't change tier parts for non-set ones.

P.S.: in MoP, as far as I remember, any spec had a build of 2pc that was +- the same or even better than 4pc build. Hope WoD might have the same.

[ShaObito]

Even if it's a tiny dps loss on paper.

Well that's the whole point. It's a DPS loss, and not a tiny one at that. 4-pc for fire is head and hands worth sacrificing the stats, unless you have sims/numbers that state otherwise due to some unforeseen circumstance in the previous number crunches.

[Emmerde]

Even if it's a tiny dps loss on paper.

Well that's the whole point. It's a DPS loss, and not a tiny one at that. 4-pc for fire is head and hands worth sacrificing the stats, unless you have sims/numbers that state otherwise due to some unforeseen circumstance in the previous number crunches.

Too bad I don't have the exact numbers, but, as far as I remember from pre-nerf tier bonus sims, 4pc gave not that much of advantage over 2pc even before nerf. It was about 2-3k simmed on solotarget (much more for AoE cleave since baseline DPS goes up, ofc) with baseline DPS of 40-45k +-. After the nerf 4pc should look almost useless even on paper, since it's proc rate was reduced by 1/3 on average. What's left even on paper? About 1-1.5k paper dps gain from baseline of 40-45k, low crit (nightmare), low mastery (definite AoE cleave disadvantage) and the hell of a headache syncing comubstion with proc?

What I mean is more stats mean less RNG, more predictable gameplay. SC shows average values from many tries, but in real raid you only have one, you have no room for RNG. There's an issue of how close you can get to pulling those paper values every pull. Even more important thing is the less RNG you have, the better you solve exact situations when you have to do exact thing in a very limited period of time (hands on Kromog, for example: you won't even try syncing 4set proc with hands, so it's completely useless there since dps gain on single target burst is nothing compared to well prepared AoE).

[Dutchmagoz]

Even if it's a tiny dps loss on paper.

Well that's the whole point. It's a DPS loss, and not a tiny one at that. 4-pc for fire is head and hands worth sacrificing the stats, unless you have sims/numbers that state otherwise due to some unforeseen circumstance in the previous number crunches.

Too bad I don't have the exact numbers, but, as far as I remember from pre-nerf tier bonus sims, 4pc gave not that much of advantage over 2pc even before nerf. It was about 2-3k simmed on solotarget (much more for AoE cleave since baseline DPS goes up, ofc) with baseline DPS of 40-45k +-. After the nerf 4pc should look almost useless even on paper, since it's proc rate was reduced by 1/3 on average. What's left even on paper? About 1-1.5k paper dps gain from baseline of 40-45k, low crit (nightmare), low mastery (definite AoE cleave disadvantage) and the hell of a headache syncing comubstion with proc?

What I mean is more stats mean less RNG, more predictable gameplay. SC shows average values from many tries, but in real raid you only have one, you have no room for RNG. There's an issue of how close you can get to pulling those paper values every pull. Even more important thing is the less RNG you have, the better you solve exact situations when you have to do exact thing in a very limited period of time (hands on Kromog, for example: you won't even try syncing 4set proc with hands, so it's completely useless there since dps gain on single target burst is nothing compared to well prepared AoE).

The bolded part is very wrong. It was almost the best 2pc->4pc dps gain in the game.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0" target="_blank

This is prenerf, 3.4k dps gain on single target, 7.7%.

Not argueing whether dropping 4pc is worth it or not here, I haven't done any research on that, but 4pc is still very strong, especially on cleave.

[TLTeo]

Even if it's like a 3-4% increase in dps, that's still way way more than whatever better secondaries you could get on two pieces. Not to mention, the only crit/mastery piece that could be used instead of tier Maiden legs. The other set pieces have either crit or mastery on them.

I wasn't active for most of MoP, but in siege at least 4p was a huge deal for both fire and arcane so i don't really know what you are talking about.

[Darthy]

The biggest issue I personally have with the 4 piece is its inconsistency.
Yesterday 27 tries on Thogar with only 4 times having the 4 piece procc during the opener which resulted in a 200k dps after combustion was done compared to the lousy 80k i get without it. Maidens will be even worse i think although you can reliably ignite trick there which might result in a win

[Mevlin]

@ Komma

I'm trying to understand the formula here: PPM * H * T / 60. I understand that something resets to 120 during boss pull, but it can't be T since then it'll be more than 100% chance. So I assume the 120 reset relates to BLP. Is that right? And if so what is T during the 1st trigger during boss pull?

[Komma]

T is reset to 10 on pull.