[Advanced][ilvl 540-582] Visual Frost Guide 5.4

[Akraen]

Update: Haste > Mastery (regardless of opinion) until 15697 Haste

New Recommendation: Get 15832 haste for +7 tick to NT (even when you don't use NT on fights, this is such an inconsequential loss by stepping up to the next breakpoint)

Alternative Recommendation: Go for 19347 haste for +8/+4 to NT/LB & +14/+5 NT/LB ticks during Hero/Meta, minimal single target loss for significant multitarget gain.

Psychological Trap: Stick to 14242 if it's a comfort thing for you, all of this is for minimal gains. Reports of massive DPS swings are not due to these stat changes.

Disclaimer: Much of this guide covers technique and highlights key playstyle differences to promote success in raid boss encounters. At some points there may be conflict with simcraft or the experience of others. Please be aware that 5.4 frost is complex with no clear answers only best practices. If you disagree with something in this guide please respectfully post a reply but do not attempt to argue A is better than B.



Conclusion
This more or less concludes my 5.4 Frost guide. It's a constant work in progress. So please do not hold it against me for any fuzzy wording or confusing gist. I've attempted to be very clear here with the goal being providing some data and interpretative analysis for mages who consider themselves a little more advanced. This guide will probably not help anyone who can't already maintain bomb uptimes, track their buffs, or those who don't understand that icicles shoot automatically.

If all you wanted was a tldr: Haste to 15697, rest in mastery, use PBoI and KTT.

5.4.8 - Nothing is definitive or proven, but it is possible that crit has been undervalued and due to PBoI going up to 9.7% there might be a justification to prioritize crit as the second choice of stats. There will be another thread. Otherwise, play it safe and still use this guide to choose a build.

[Crabmodem]

Is there a way to get the graphs posted larger? Like maybe a link to a high rez version?

[Akraen]

Yes! I'll post them as soon as I can. In fact, they're due to be updated soon anyway!

[Magictheo]

Hello.

I´m at ilvl 548 (2pc). Only from the build choice (< ilvl 550) it would be good to go to the mastery build with 9522 lb breakpoint, but the minimum haste i can reach is 9776.

The max. haste from the gear is 16158 haste, so would should i do? i have no meta gem or legendary cloak atm.

Actuall i play 50% haste for the 1 sec gcd, but i´m not sure, if this will be the option for max. dps.

Hope you could help me.

Thanks a lot

[Akraen]

Hey there! Since you don't have the gem or cloak, it's easier to make recommendations to you.

The reason people become shy with haste stacking is because of the meta gem itself. It has a pretty good uptime, and during that uptime you begin to diminish the effective value of haste. The jury is out on the true effect of it (I argue that it does not matter, but it makes others feel uncomfortable either way).

My #1 recommendation to you is to just use the default AMR stat weights because until you get the meta gem, haste is without question your best stat. If you do not want to trust the default AMR stat weights, then you can just stick to 50% haste so that you build comfort with it while you get more gear.

I recommend also to stay at 14242 haste -> mastery until you decide:
1) Do you want the spec to play faster with more snapshots and emphasis on situational/adapting damage?
2) Do you want to focus mostly on single target DPS, with more emphasis on your opener and icicle generators?

If #1 appeals to you, stack haste as high as you can (I am going up to 28k!!)
If #2 appeals to you, stack mastery as high as you can (but don't go below 14242 haste)

[nathyiel]

very good guide. I'm always fan of you're Flowchart. (go night elf for hard mode)

[Magictheo]

Hey there.

Thanks for the quick answer, i will follow #2 until i get better gear!

PS: a thanks button would be great!

have a nice weekend

[NytemareRulez]

At what HBP does FB become optimal? from flowchart I can tell it under Haste build, but don't know HBP.

I also have no meta and cloak (working on secrets) but am able to do 13053 in between BP without losing anything.

[Frosted]

At what HBP does FB become optimal? from flowchart I can tell it under Haste build, but don't know HBP.

I also have no meta and cloak (working on secrets) but am able to do 13053 in between BP without losing anything.

Frostbomb? Never.

[NytemareRulez]

At what HBP does FB become optimal? from flowchart I can tell it under Haste build, but don't know HBP.

I also have no meta and cloak (working on secrets) but am able to do 13053 in between BP without losing anything.

Frostbomb? Never.

Then you might want to look at the charts again, as he clearly shows at some point FB beats other 2 bombs out. Falls under haste build - see the chart that says DPS Bomb - single target

[Frosted]

You might want to understand what you are looking at better.

The DPS in those charts are not real or simulated DPS comparisons of the different bombs. They are a simple dmg done / (time taken to deal damage) calculation. Obviously, the bomb that explodes in 4 (reduced by haste) seconds (frost bomb) is going to look like it does more DPS than living bomb (which ticks for ~12 seconds). However, if you remove yourself from the vacuum of "DPS done by one cast of this bomb vs that bomb" and into the real scenario of "frostbomb does almost 1/2 the damage per cast of Living bomb, meaning I need to cast it multiple times to do the same damage" and then take into account that while you're spending more globals just to catch up to the damage LB is doing, the LB user is able to appropriate those globals into other damage sources and overall generate much more DPS. (not to mention that if you just take it LB vs FB during a specific length of time, LB always wins single target. Remember, LB is an instant cast no CD spell. Frostbomb has both a cooldown AND a cast time)

Frostbomb is never a DPS gain over living bomb, unless you are in massive AoE situations. That bomb comparison in is quite misleading.

[NytemareRulez]

You might want to understand what you are looking at better.

The DPS in those charts are not real or simulated DPS comparisons of the different bombs. They are a simple dmg done / (time taken to deal damage) calculation. Obviously, the bomb that explodes in 4 (reduced by haste) seconds (frost bomb) is going to look like it does more DPS than living bomb (which ticks for ~12 seconds). However, if you remove yourself from the vacuum of "DPS done by one cast of this bomb vs that bomb" and into the real scenario of "frostbomb does almost 1/2 the damage per cast of Living bomb, meaning I need to cast it multiple times to do the same damage" and then take into account that while you're spending more globals just to catch up to the damage LB is doing, the LB user is able to appropriate those globals into other damage sources and overall generate much more DPS. (not to mention that if you just take it LB vs FB during a specific length of time, LB always wins single target. Remember, LB is an instant cast no CD spell. Frostbomb has both a cooldown AND a cast time)

Frostbomb is never a DPS gain over living bomb, unless you are in massive AoE situations. That bomb comparison in is quite misleading.

OH just seems from the chart at one point you can make Frostbomb the better bomb regardless, I assuming that would be if you could get FB to 1 sec or under cast and explode in like 1 sec and have no more then a 2 sec cd.

FB is really nice has it 100% chance for brain freeze, where there been time LB didn't proc a single Brain Freeze for me - which throws everything off

[Frosted]

Even at 100% haste it still has a 5 second cooldown and a 0.75s cast time, and 1s GCD (if cast goes below 1s it doesn't matter due to GCD capping). So at best you're still having to spend 2 GCDs to get to the same damage Living bomb does with one in 12seconds. This also means you basically need to hit FB on cooldown, so you're control over snapshotting is extremely limited in comparison to LB.

[Akraen]

Frosted is explaining it correctly.

There is a point where FB can beat LB but it's only right before the 36k haste bp which you can't really even get to anyway.

FB can arguably offer different/better overall results due to its impact on ET%s. If you're trying to limit ET% spent on mastery-based damage (icicle generators) in a crit/haste/int build you can do some cool experimental stuff.

[NytemareRulez]

Frosted is explaining it correctly.

There is a point where FB can beat LB but it's only right before the 36k haste bp which you can't really even get to anyway.

FB can arguably offer different/better overall results due to its impact on ET%s. If you're trying to limit ET% spent on mastery-based damage (icicle generators) in a crit/haste/int build you can do some cool experimental stuff.

Currently using the haste build you posted, as I am now able to hit it with my gear without losing other stats like before. Plan was to use FB if I could make it do more as it takes away the nasty RNG LB/NT bring.

Only two problem I still having with mage is when did bomb do last tick so I can refresh it, and not getting BF proc from bombs. Why I also was going to aim to use Frost Bomb if I could get the haste needed to win. 36K haste no way I can hit that. Just got to 14242

[Komma]

Only two problem I still having with mage is when did bomb do last tick so I can refresh it, and not getting BF proc from bombs. Why I also was going to aim to use Frost Bomb if I could get the haste needed to win. 36K haste no way I can hit that. Just got to 14242

You can quickly calculate your bomb tick speed by looking at your spell haste (after getting a spell haste buff!): Divide 3 seconds by (1 + spell haste). For example, if I have 40% spell haste:

Bomb tick speed = 3 / (1 + 0.4) = 2.14 seconds per tick. This means that when your bomb has less than 2.14 seconds remaining on it, you should refresh it.

For most folks who are doing 14242 haste, your raid buffed spell haste should be roughly 50%. This means that you should refresh your bomb when there is less than (3 / 1.5) = 2.0 seconds remaining.

Keep in mind that bloodlust and meta gem each give you 30% spell haste (multiplicative) - If you're running 14242 haste rating, it means your bomb will tick once every (2.0 / 1.3) = 1.54 seconds when you have either buff, or (2.0 / 1.3 / 1.3) = 1.18 seconds if your meta gem procs during bloodlust.

[NytemareRulez]

Only two problem I still having with mage is when did bomb do last tick so I can refresh it, and not getting BF proc from bombs. Why I also was going to aim to use Frost Bomb if I could get the haste needed to win. 36K haste no way I can hit that. Just got to 14242

You can quickly calculate your bomb tick speed by looking at your spell haste (after getting a spell haste buff!): Divide 3 seconds by (1 + spell haste). For example, if I have 40% spell haste:

Bomb tick speed = 3 / (1 + 0.4) = 2.14 seconds per tick. This means that when your bomb has less than 2.14 seconds remaining on it, you should refresh it.

For most folks who are doing 14242 haste, your raid buffed spell haste should be roughly 50%. This means that you should refresh your bomb when there is less than (3 / 1.5) = 2.0 seconds remaining.

Keep in mind that bloodlust and meta gem each give you 30% spell haste (multiplicative) - If you're running 14242 haste rating, it means your bomb will tick once every (2.0 / 1.3) = 1.54 seconds when you have either buff, or (2.0 / 1.3 / 1.3) = 1.18 seconds if your meta gem procs during bloodlust.

Ah OK yeah I mouseover debuff to know what the speed is. So when it has less time then what debuff says it ticks, I can refresh got it.

[Radagur]

Hi all,

long time reader from mmo-champion & icy veins, first time poster.
I am a bit confused regarding the mixture build and haste build.
Currently i am going to 18960 haste, rest mastery for max dps ... is this the right way?
Currently sitting on 10/14hc, going to try thok 25hc tonight.

Armory link should be in my profile, for convenience:
http://eu.battle.net/wow/de/character/b ... gur/simple" target="_blank

Thanks in advance for any help / comments provided
Rada

[Akraen]

Hi all,

long time reader from mmo-champion & icy veins, first time poster.
I am a bit confused regarding the mixture build and haste build.
Currently i am going to 18960 haste, rest mastery for max dps ... is this the right way?
Currently sitting on 10/14hc, going to try thok 25hc tonight.

Armory link should be in my profile, for convenience:
http://eu.battle.net/wow/de/character/b ... gur/simple" target="_blank

Thanks in advance for any help / comments provided
Rada

It's one of the correct ways Some people really love how 18960 (or rather, 19347 which you might as well get) plays and its results. I'm one of them! I believer Kver did Heroic Garrosh with that as well.

You can be a little bit stronger on single target if you drop down the haste, or a little bit stronger on multidot/AoE if you get even more haste. I progressed and defeated Thok with 19347 haste, and on Siegecrafter I reallllly loved having 19347 haste for crawler mines.

What you need to do is something you must determine based off your uptimes, personal preference, the fight you're progressing on (I do 14242->mastery for Paragons progression). It's not necessary even to switch from fight to fight, but if you want a true answer for what's best... well stock up on some gems.

[NytemareRulez]

So I have 14253 haste without buff, but doing lfr with Haste buff and was only in 42% haste. Robot says 50.03 with the buff without I suppose to be sitting on 42.88% yet I only sitting on 33.54%, as the same time game character for haste says 14253, so I don't get why I am off and don't have right haste of 42.88% unbuff and buff only have 40.21%