Breaktheice's WoD Frost Mage Guide (updated for 6.2)

[Komma]

Yay new stickied threads. There is still some polishing necessary for this guide, but I think we're getting there!

[Breaktheice]

Thanks for this post!!!!

III-Basics
-Mention Blizzard and FO interractions.

Yup I was thinking of adding a section for WoD perks.

-Mention these are the basics BEFORE talents, because statements like: Ice Lance – use with Fingers of Frost. Use without FoF only if you’re on the move and can’t Frostbolt. can be confusing. I understand what you mean, but the absolute newcomer might not!

I'm going to revamp/move this section

-Add a section on how to use Water Jet.

Roger

-You mention Cold Snap on Tier I talents. That might be confusing for some players. You might want to add that section on the Cold Snap analysis!

Roger!

-MI is best on single target always, even if you can maintain high RoP uptime. If you have multiple targets and low movement, you take RoP and if you have multiple targets and take Incanter’s Flow.

Do you have anything to back this up, though? Last I checked, in sims (mythic gear), IN/RoP/PC >>> any other talent combination on single target.

-Your verdict on Tier 6 is a bit chaotic. Depends on the encounter doesn’t define what the verdict is.

True. Noted

-On Thermal Void, you might want to mention that you want to unglyph Icy Veins when running this talent.

Pretty sure this is incorrect.

-On Prismatic Crystal you do not mention IL-cleave, or IN interactions.

I plan to revamp this section shortly!

Generally on the later tier your analysis is a bit lacking and chaotic. Might want to revise

I agree.

-On Fingers of Frost, you can never be at 2 charges of FoF unless you purposedly banked them. As banking charges is always a loss because of the potential to clip them it should be avoided.

The isn't necessarily true. For example, sometimes FO will be generating FoFs faster than you can use them (because of GCD).

-On Ice Nova, you should never bank charges, for no reason whatsoever.

Agreed

Frostbomb and Prismatic Crystal
-1You should pair WJ cast right before PC so you always have 2 FoF procs there.
-2 This isn’t always correct as it’s affected by PC range, cleave range, boss movement (like Ko’ragh) etc
-3 (Should mention if IV is glyphed for this to be true)
-4 Should mention that you have to be far enough for this to work, otherwise your FO will clip the previously mentioned charges.
-5 Inside it’s hitbox, not as close as possible. Cleave from my experience works like this. It takes the edge of the hitbox to determine if the cleave happens.

1. Don't necessarily need 2 x FoFs going into PC since you can override with FO by mistake.
2. I disagree with you on this. What you're doing is describing how you play, which isn't wrong. However, in terms of min/maxing with PC, your Frost Bomb should be placed on your target, not on your PC. There isn't a single sim that shows you doing more damage by putting your FrB on your PC. What you're doing is describing a safe route, which isn't a bad thing but it's not necessarily right either.
3. Agreed, but in most cases Icy Veins is almost always glyphed.
4. Even if you're not far enough, it's okay. Losing 1 tick of FO damage is inconsequential when you consider the amount of Ice Lances you can pour into the PC. As for the procs, like I said, having procs going into PC is a bonus, not an absolute necessity.
5. Agreed.

-6 Even then i’d much rather have it that the Fbomb is placed on Crystal, so that you dont have the potential slight movement ruin your cleave.

Again, I feel like you're describing a worst-case scenario save. What I'm doing is describing an ideal burst. Not to say your method is wrong, but it's not the best DPS yield either (unless you can prove me wrong by sims). I feel like "potential slight movement" isn't something that warrants changing a burst setup in a guide. It's one of those things that can screw you regardless and you have to make sure the PC is close enough/in your target and that you choose a time where the tanks wont move boss and you will have the time to turret.

This is like saying "you have a slight potential of lag or dc".

-7 Water Jet should be used right before that instant to generate FoF charges as mentioned

Not necessary, as mentioned.

Your section about not using FO before placing crystal because you might clip charges is incorrect as you can FO from a far enough range and not have the orb reach the crystal before you fire your own IL.

It's not necessarily incorrect. Again, there are mutliple ways to look at this. For instance, if you launch an Orb from far away, it always loses a few seconds worth of DPS in transit/travel time as well. Again, this buys the mage enough time to fire off one IL.

2. Prismatic Crystal and ice Nova
One slight alteration you make sure that the CD of the Crystal is 12 seconds - GCD in comparison to nova. Also when you say what happens when you cast your first Ice Nova, you mean on the very very first Crystal I assume? Because otherwise it doesn’t matter as long as you aren’t capped out.

Yes that's what I meant.

3. TV and MI
You got it wrong. When you water jet you do Cast FB, mid FB WJ, cast FB, Ice Lance to prevent clipping FoF. As such you pop IV right before going into Water Jet.

Actually your method is wrong if you look at it from a numbers perspective. What I'm doing is saying that in a WORST case scenario, you can add 10 seconds to your Icy Veins using my technique. If we use your technique, then assuming a WORST case scenario, we wont add 10 seconds onto Icy Veins. Because in your case, Water Jet will be used as soon as Icy Veins is used. The 2 x FoF we would get from Water Jet (and not three, because assuming worst case) would push Icy Veins to 24 seconds. The 1 x FoF from FO would push IV to 26 seconds. At 24 seconds, your Water Jet will be ready again, but will not buy you enough time to cast 2 x Frostbolt into it to extend Icy Veins, because your pet will take 1 second to start the channel, and then you have 1 second left to cast 2 x Frostbolt and 2 x IL via FoF, which just wont happen.

Concerning delaying MI, as several trinkets are 2min CD on use (Mythic Twins, CClarity) you never want to delay them.

This too is wrong on your part. Because all 2 min trinkets share a cooldown with MI, you can use the provided table to decide if delaying trinkets is worth it too. As long as you're not losing a trinket use (fights that last an even number of minutes, like 4, 6, 8) - it's always better to get one more synch with Icy Veins during the fight for a DPS increase.

[Frosted]

It's almost never a DPS gain to delay MI/trinkets for IV syncs. I think you're really overestimating a few things there.

1) the DPS gain (it's not large)
2) the real window of opportunity you have.

You have it laid out where based on even / odd minute intervals you do different things. But that's not how it actually ends up working. Your real window of opportunity is about ~20seconds for delay-syncs. If you've delay-synced and the fight lasts even that far beyond what you expected, it's a DPS loss.

Really, I dislike that entire section. There is no data to support anything you are saying in it, it's just based on sort of "common knowledge" approach. Aka feelycrafting. I've done time-course styled sims and seen that it's a much more fragile window of opportunity than you are portraying.

Finally, the information is worthless at best, and pedantic at worse to a discussion about cooldowns and proper play. The only fight you can even remotely do this sort of fight-length styled guesswork on successfully is butcher, and that's only because it's a 4min fight that will either be dead at 4:00 (or like 4:05-4:10), or you are going to wipe. Every other fight (especially during progression) it is impossible until you've killed it over and over, know nobody is going to die, and have gone through your logs and done some sort of analysis on your average kill times. For the type of person going to read a guide, it's completely worthless and will only serve to waste their time and get them to focus on a nonsense idea of delay-syncing CDs on a fight-by-fight basis, instead of focusing on their core mechanics (which are far more important).

At the very least, if we're going to disagree on this, you have to backup your assertions with data.

Agree with berl on the talent section, needs a re-work. Lots of detail missing, some spells basically ignored in the discussion.

Making the idea of IN/PC interactions being cyclic is nice to get out there so people understand why there is no need to bank 2x INs for every PC, that was nicely done I thought.

I don't like your use of Bold. Think of bold as "if 'm really quickly scrolling through a big document, what do I want people to see?" If what you have from your Bold statements doesn't really make sense as a response to that question, it's probably not a good use of Bold.

[Berlinia]

Is it just me or are you describing getting a 3d FoF charge during WJ a worst case scenario? xD
Also, you should know that Frozen Orb gets activated after it hits the first target. (at least that was the case during beta and MoP). So you don't lose uptime when FO is fired from a distance!

[Frosted]

Also, you should know that Frozen Orb gets activated after it hits the first target. (at least that was the case during beta and MoP). So you don't lose uptime when FO is fired from a distance!

You do actually. Count the # of ticks you get when firing from melee/10yrds vs. max range. You get less ticks at max range.

[Berlinia]

I was fairly certain that it didn't o.O
I'll check it tomorrow! If i'm mistaken there pardons.

[gameorg]

99% are pretty obvious for top mages, but for mages who dont have so much time to think every cooldown usage out its a fucking amazing guide.

Hands down the best frost guide i have seen so far, especially because you focus on alot small details aswell.

[Breaktheice]

It's almost never a DPS gain to delay MI/trinkets for IV syncs. I think you're really overestimating a few things there.

1) the DPS gain (it's not large)
2) the real window of opportunity you have.

Don't worry, I read everything! But this summarizes my point. When done properly, it is an increase. This is something we both agree on.

However, I can definitely see where you come from too. I have added a little precautionary message on that section. However, I would disagree on removing it. You can't say it's a DPS loss or no net DPS gain when done properly.

[Breaktheice]

Is it just me or are you describing getting a 3d FoF charge during WJ a worst case scenario? xD
Also, you should know that Frozen Orb gets activated after it hits the first target. (at least that was the case during beta and MoP). So you don't lose uptime when FO is fired from a distance!

No I'm not. In a worst case scenario, I'm assuming 2 x FoF per Water Jet in both your case and my case because if RNG does NOT help you, you will get just 2 x FoF. In your case, IV isn't extended to 30 seconds. In my case it is.

And I'm fairly confident Orb loses damage the further away you are from your target.

[Berlinia]

Yep it does my bad. I think you should in the general of the guide not expect perfect conditions. Like, RoP might be slightly better but you need 5% uptime loss for MI to get ahead!

[DLXX]

plx upload wa strings

[kaelleria]

My two cents in regards to the guide -

Wasn't it determined that saving Fbomb for 2 FoF procs was nearly identical to casting it at 1 proc dpswise?

I've also found that placing the crystal inside the boss's model can actual prevent you from getting splitting ice depending on the size of the hit box. Purely anecdotal, but worth mentioning.

In regards to the PC/IN interaction, the cyclical nature of IN use is great if you are robomage, but if its delayed at all you're kind of screwed in addition to potentially munching FoF procs. I generally use IL > IN > FFB > Frostbolt on the PC if I can't guarantee perfect timing due to things like fight mechanics and the like.

As far as macros are concerned, this is super useful as it takes a good 2-3 seconds for the Welly to get going.

Code: Select all

#showtooltip /cast Mirror Image /cast Waterbolt

You would use this right after you prepotted at 3 seconds and everything would hit when the timer hits 0.

[Zagrash]

Amazing Guide !

I wanna say 2 things about the Comet.

You say:

Let's sort the easiest talent out first. Although I would never recommend Comet, if you do opt for it, it will be #2 on your cast priority, right behind your level 90 talent (if the 90 talent is Mirror Image or Rune of Power). Make sure you cast Comet on cooldown because it has no charge system and saving it is pointless. Be warned though, a moving target may step out of your Comet!

1. If the target moves, the animations won't hit the boss, but you still get the damage so you don't care about that^^
2. I recommand the talent if you fight against a hard mechanic for the first 1-2 times, in my opinion it is good for learn an encounter. If you know the encounter, switch talents. of course in DPS its shit ^^

[Rythlock]

So guys whats better, coz i already heard both variants. Use frost bomb on a prysmatic crystal or use frost bomb on the boss? Very helpful guide, good job, tyvm!

[Calo]

Bomb on boss if he doesnt move. Attack crystal.

[danksch]

Great guide!

Do you guys think Frost will stay viable in BLF+ content, or do you think it makes more sense to go with Arcane for Single Target and Fire for cleave fights? Since the latter specs scale better with gear.
A question that bugs me currently.

[TLTeo]

It will be perfectly viable still

[Breaktheice]

If I'm to guess, Frost will not be the best min/max spec on any BRF fight. It wasn't that way in any MoP fight, and it wasn't that way in Highmaul either. I didn't play WoW before MoP so can't comment on prior raids.

What Frost has is good all round potential, but this has been gutted heavily since our Splitting Ice range was ninja nerfed.

[Berlinia]

If I'm to guess, Frost will not be the best min/max spec on any BRF fight. It wasn't that way in any MoP fight, and it wasn't that way in Highmaul either. I didn't play WoW before MoP so can't comment on prior raids.

What Frost has is good all round potential, but this has been gutted heavily since our Splitting Ice range was ninja nerfed.

Frost was very good on Malkorok!

[Komma]

Verdict: Greater Invisibility > Cauterize > Cold Snap

I'm usually a bit reluctant to "rank" talents in this way when they perform different jobs. I think it might be better to advise readers to review what they're dying to, and then decide whether they could have saved themselves with Greater Invis, or Cauterize

Unstable Magic is roughly a 15% single target DPS increase and the good news is that it requires no management whatsoever.

I'm not sure this is correct. It might be closer to observed numbers if you removed the "1" in front.

Also freezes all targets it hits (but remember, bosses are immune to Freeze).

I believe it is actually a stun. It works on a lot of mobs that are immune to Frost Nova and Pet Freeze.

The images will always prioritize whatever you have most threat on for 40 seconds.

Er. Are you sure about this? Whenever I hit a new target, they switch to it after finishing their current spell.

Furthermore, the talent lacks any synergy with the rest of Frost's kit and therefore is best if avoided.

Typo? "best avoided".

In the rotation section it might be good to explain what you mean by "getting 2 FoF out of a Water Jet"!

Ice Lance hits a single target for 100% of its damage.

...?

The biggest hurdle you have to get over in order to use this set up properly is decide whether or not you should delay Mirror Image in order to line it up with Icy Veins. The easiest way to do this is by looking at the length of the boss fight. If you can delay a use of Mirror Image without losing a Mirror Image use in the fight, then you should delay it.

Agree with Frosted that it's not necessary to spend so much time on delaying or not delaying cooldowns for syncing, especially since the same rule applies to all other 2 min/3 min cases such as trinkets. For most players, their groups don't have such a steady amount of DPS that kill times can be estimated to within a 30 sec to 1 min accuracy. For PUGs, this is completely impossible.

+ Water Jet

This should be mentioned much earlier, maybe following the core rotation.

+ Two Target Rotation

My only concern is how confident you are about that the 3, 4, 5 target rotiations are optimal.

There's a few typos here and there (I found it during reading but can't find it now in quoting...), and a few sections could be shorter (notably the talent-combo usage ones), but I think most of this looks good.