I have been receiving the basic training of 2v2 arena from a friend for 4 weeks now. Due to either the very nature, or my utter unfamiliarity to the logic, of arena, I experience much more mental fluctuation in arena than in a raid, which more often than not make me forget what to do when I engage, or even make me freeze and lose all the initiative brought by Invisibility.
Inspired by the method used in real-life bootcamp, therefore, I hope there is a set of combo, or "drill", that I can memorize very well and instinctively dish out when my mind is blank from the pressure of arena fight. The goal is to: 1) pop all my cooldowns before I inevitably and swiftly die; 2) receive the least bad result in the broadest spectrum of opponent combinations.
Currently, the drill I use is something like:
GI when the gate is opened (I didn't take Cold Snap, because without a healer, that doesn't help much).
0th GCD: If the opponent has melee, put a RoF under my feet.
1st GCD: If the designated target is at moderate range, WE Freeze; If it's at close range, Nova; Either way, I'll always have at least one FoF proc.
2nd GCD: DF the target (with Glyph), pop IV, pop the offensive trinket, pop AT.
3rd GCD: If the target trink the DF, use Nova or WE Freeze, whichever I haven't used; Otherwise, start spamming the Lance.
4th GCD and onward: Spam the Lance until when DF is present, otherwise throw FO and MI.
When FO and MI are both out, I'm free to die. Blink if I can, Block if my hand is fast enough, otherwise die a plain death.
During the process, if the off-target ever gets in range, a GCD will be used to PoM Sheep.
==========
Now, can anyone share their own drill if there is one, or at least give me some tips to improve my naive drill?
FYI:
1. my 2v2 rating is currently ~1300, which indicates I start to face less clueless noobs and more people who knows as much basics as I do.
2. In arena I wear 550 in head, chest, gloves, pants (giving me 4S15 bonus), feet, 1 ring and 2 trinkets (one offensive and one anti-CC). The rest are legendary cloak and raiding pieces.
3. My trainer and partner is a BM hunter, and the chance I'll pair with anyone else before September is negligible.
A drill to initiate engagement in arena?
Re: A drill to initiate engagement in arena?
Nobody? Even some general tips on doing arena with a Hunter, or just doing arena, will be appreciated.
Re: A drill to initiate engagement in arena?
Hard to say. There's isn't a real guide to arena, it's more about knowing your opponents and how to counter their abilities.
In 2s didn't play with a hunter, but only with wars and rogues. But here is my general mode of operation:
1. Take cold snap. Especially since you don't have a healer.
2. Decide which armor you're going to use (molten/mage) depending on comp. Molten for physical (melee and hunters), mage for casters.
3. Open with insta sheep. And keep sheeping one of the opposing team as much as you can. In many cases this macro is your first move when you break invis, especially if the opponent team mates aren't near each other.
4. MI is a threefold tool in arena. First, it's the most reliable slow in the game. Second, when facing hunters who unleash their zoo on you it's a great way to drop agro. Third it causes a big mess in the arena which usually works in your favor. You need to choose what you'll use them for.
5. Use RoP only when you see a melee coming for you or as a counter for hunter's pets (nova is also good for this). Little reason to just put it there as a precaution when you have the upper hand in a surprise attack (after invis). RoP is also good to set a trap for someone who hides behind a pillar.
6. Try to build your icicles before popping AT. That's a lot of damage (especially if it came from FFB).
7. Buff up before AT with whatever you can (even TS), makes it harder to purge.
8. During subsequent bursts, strip your target from buffs. Spellsteal is expensive, so use mana gem after the spellsteal rampage.
9. Sometimes DF is more useful as plain CC. Though I found it rare in 2s.
10. Against hunters don't throw your orb right away, wait a little bit to see if he pops his zoo. If he does, then use the orb and spam IL like mad.
11. Don't wait to block on 1%, do it earlier. While in the block instantly heal with snap. Block also works as a trinket, if blink can't help for whatever reason.
12. Keep your LB up. Gives you BF and constantly ticks for damage.
13. Quickly switch targets when a target becomes immune to your damage (DKs, hunters, mages, whatever). This also means that you have to pay close attention to your opponent buffs and have keybinds for targets to make switching a lot easier.
14. If you're getting trained by a melee (and you will be, because you're a mage) try to pull him away as much as you can and eventually block it off. Makes it a lot easier for your teammate. You're ranged, big distance doesn't make a lot of difference for you but it does for melees.
Some class specifics. Poly on wars with spell reflect when you're low, sheep/deep enhancers once they pop ascendance, interrupt ele in his ascendance, try to target resto shaman's healing totem, avoid hunter's zoo at all costs, a lock without his pet can't do much.
In 2s didn't play with a hunter, but only with wars and rogues. But here is my general mode of operation:
1. Take cold snap. Especially since you don't have a healer.
2. Decide which armor you're going to use (molten/mage) depending on comp. Molten for physical (melee and hunters), mage for casters.
3. Open with insta sheep. And keep sheeping one of the opposing team as much as you can. In many cases this macro is your first move when you break invis, especially if the opponent team mates aren't near each other.
4. MI is a threefold tool in arena. First, it's the most reliable slow in the game. Second, when facing hunters who unleash their zoo on you it's a great way to drop agro. Third it causes a big mess in the arena which usually works in your favor. You need to choose what you'll use them for.
5. Use RoP only when you see a melee coming for you or as a counter for hunter's pets (nova is also good for this). Little reason to just put it there as a precaution when you have the upper hand in a surprise attack (after invis). RoP is also good to set a trap for someone who hides behind a pillar.
6. Try to build your icicles before popping AT. That's a lot of damage (especially if it came from FFB).
7. Buff up before AT with whatever you can (even TS), makes it harder to purge.
8. During subsequent bursts, strip your target from buffs. Spellsteal is expensive, so use mana gem after the spellsteal rampage.
9. Sometimes DF is more useful as plain CC. Though I found it rare in 2s.
10. Against hunters don't throw your orb right away, wait a little bit to see if he pops his zoo. If he does, then use the orb and spam IL like mad.
11. Don't wait to block on 1%, do it earlier. While in the block instantly heal with snap. Block also works as a trinket, if blink can't help for whatever reason.
12. Keep your LB up. Gives you BF and constantly ticks for damage.
13. Quickly switch targets when a target becomes immune to your damage (DKs, hunters, mages, whatever). This also means that you have to pay close attention to your opponent buffs and have keybinds for targets to make switching a lot easier.
14. If you're getting trained by a melee (and you will be, because you're a mage) try to pull him away as much as you can and eventually block it off. Makes it a lot easier for your teammate. You're ranged, big distance doesn't make a lot of difference for you but it does for melees.
Some class specifics. Poly on wars with spell reflect when you're low, sheep/deep enhancers once they pop ascendance, interrupt ele in his ascendance, try to target resto shaman's healing totem, avoid hunter's zoo at all costs, a lock without his pet can't do much.
Re: A drill to initiate engagement in arena?
Sorry for the (extremely!) late reply, because I intended to reply after the weekly training session on Monday. The training session was postponed, however, so I tried them out on a few reckless Horde pigs that harassed Stormwind and the Shrine on my realm. I'm glad to report that the tips from @lynx yielded generally very good result, leading to improvement in the battle outcomes and, more importantly, confidence that my talent is not quite restricted in PvE after all.
The single most important lesson I learned from @lynx is:
Still, there are some questions regarding lynx's words. I'll put them here before I ask more people and test further in combat.
Hope lynx will still read this and not disappointed by my late reply.
The single most important lesson I learned from @lynx is:
Before this, I didn't quite appreciate the crucial role of buffs in WoW, regarding them as a few percentage of enhancement. Nor did I actually realize that Spellsteal is useful at all, due to the scarcity of its usage in PvE (since TBC Gruul). It's only after I read the word of lynx that I started to re-evaluate the leverage improvement buffs bring and the edge it gives me to steal them. Now, I've started to use an addon to allow me casting Spellsteal on an enemy by right-clicking his frame (and casting Remove Curse by right-cliking friendly frame). It's totally worthy of the GCDs it consumes.During subsequent bursts, strip your target from buffs.
Still, there are some questions regarding lynx's words. I'll put them here before I ask more people and test further in combat.
I understand their defensive effects, but the percentage is still small, and won't change the fact that I'm a fragile Cloth-wearer. I don't always have the slot to Glyph my armor either. Won't the haste buff of Frost Armor allow my damage to increase a bit? The slowing effect is good for melee as well.2. Decide which armor you're going to use (molten/mage) depending on comp. Molten for physical (melee and hunters), mage for casters.
I think you mean RoF. The problem with RoF is the 2 second arming timer that haste can't fix. With Charge+Pummel, Shadowstep+Kick or similar combinations that most melee classes have, it's very hard to get it off when the melee has already begun coming my way. The advice of using it to counter pillar-lapping is useful, though, and I'll practice this trick.5. Use RoP only when you see a melee coming for you or as a counter for hunter's pets (nova is also good for this). Little reason to just put it there as a precaution when you have the upper hand in a surprise attack (after invis). RoP is also good to set a trap for someone who hides behind a pillar.
As a prioritized target, I don't usually have the GCD for FB or BrainFreeze proc. I've been dreaming of wearing the target down with FB and bomb until 35% health, and pop everything to two-shot him, but more often than not I'm forced into Block before wearing him down to 35%. How exactly do I build icicles in this case?6. Try to build your icicles before popping AT. That's a lot of damage (especially if it came from FFB).
Honestly, I understand this one the least. In order to deal burst damage, I can't rely on the slow-ticking bomb or FB that's susceptible to all sorts of interrupts and CCs, nor can I rely on the few FoF procs the Orb gives me. DF allows me to be a mindless lancer for at least 3 solid GCDs dealing decent damage. How is that not useful? With Glyph it's GCD-free as well. Even if the target trink the DF, it takes his trinket out of the picture for almost the remaining of the fight, which isn't too bad either. Could you please elaborate? Just checked again, and found that DF is not the prerequisite of 4x damage of the lance per se, sorry for the utter ignorance. However, it's still one of the few stuns we have.9. Sometimes DF is more useful as plain CC. Though I found it rare in 2s.
Is there some macro that can /tar the first enemy player, the second enemy player, the previous/next enemy player, etc.? I usually click my arena frame, but that's a bit slow, especially when I can't find the cursor on the screen in the heat of battle.13. Quickly switch targets when a target becomes immune to your damage (DKs, hunters, mages, whatever). This also means that you have to pay close attention to your opponent buffs and have keybinds for targets to make switching a lot easier.
Hope lynx will still read this and not disappointed by my late reply.
Last edited by zhengma on Tue Jul 29, 2014 9:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: A drill to initiate engagement in arena?
By the way, is there any way to specifically invite Aowyn to share her experience? There isn't an official "@" system implemented on this forum, as far as I know.
Re: A drill to initiate engagement in arena?
You can always write him a PM. 
Shoot me a pm if you want me to elaborate on my crazy thoughts. I sometimes lose track of what I actually meant to say.
"The game isn't as simple as you."
Currently caught up in a game called Real Life. Activity may suffer from this.
"The game isn't as simple as you."
Currently caught up in a game called Real Life. Activity may suffer from this.
Re: A drill to initiate engagement in arena?
That's great to hear!Sorry for the (extremely!) late reply, because I intended to reply after the weekly training session on Monday. The training session was postponed, however, so I tried them out on a few reckless Horde pigs that harassed Stormwind and the Shrine on my realm. I'm glad to report that the tips from @lynx yielded generally very good result, leading to improvement in the battle outcomes and, more importantly, confidence that my talent is not quite restricted in PvE after all.
Yup, clique is awesome!Before this, I didn't quite appreciate the crucial role of buffs in WoW, regarding them as a few percentage of enhancement. Nor did I actually realize that Spellsteal is useful at all, due to the scarcity of its usage in PvE (since TBC Gruul). It's only after I read the word of lynx that I started to re-evaluate the leverage improvement buffs bring and the edge it gives me to steal them. Now, I've started to use an addon to allow me casting Spellsteal on an enemy by right-clicking his frame (and casting Remove Curse by right-cliking friendly frame). It's totally worthy of the GCDs it consumes.
The slow effect is just too weak when compared to 16% physical damage reduction (no point in taking molten armor without the glyph), and especially when you take hunters into consideration who aren't affected by it at all. Also, extra crit gives you more damage as well, maybe not as much as extra haste but still something. While mage armor shortens dots and cc by 25%, infinitely stronger than slow on melee when facing castersI understand their defensive effects, but the percentage is still small, and won't change the fact that I'm a fragile Cloth-wearer. I don't always have the slot to Glyph my armor either. Won't the haste buff of Frost Armor allow my damage to increase a bit? The slowing effect is good for melee as well.
And all this time still providing 3000 mastery which is converted into extra damage when building icicles.Yes, frost armor provides the biggest and easiest damage gain, but its countering capabilities are very weak. On the other hand, extra damage from molten/mage armor is not trivial (you should be crit capped without molten armor, or at least very close to it) and requires you to use FrB quite a bit, but it's there!
Sorry, was a typoI think you mean RoF. The problem with RoF is the 2 second arming timer that haste can't fix. With Charge+Pummel, Shadowstep+Kick or similar combinations that most melee classes have, it's very hard to get it off when the melee has already begun coming my way. The advice of using it to counter pillar-lapping is useful, though, and I'll practice this trick.
RoF ofc. Yes using it is not trivial, and yet it's better to learn how to use it correctly instead of plainly giving up on the surprise attack. Also, you might consider using PoM+RoF, while giving up on insta sheep. It's not as bad as it sounds, since your first poly, if was casted from invis, will generally not be interrupted. Also, don't forget, nova is a great instant CC.You don't need to bring him to 35% health, at that point he's almost toast anyway.As a prioritized target, I don't usually have the GCD for FB or BrainFreeze proc. I've been dreaming of wearing the target down with FB and bomb until 35% health, and pop everything to two-shot him, but more often than not I'm forced into Block before wearing him down to 35%. How exactly do I build icicles in this case?
What I sometimes do is this, my partner opens on a target, I cc the second. Start firing FrB at the first, with the odd FFB. 5 icicles? Win! Switch back to the second target (the one that was cc'ed) and throw everything I have at him, MI (to slow him), IV, frozen orb, AT, DF, literally whatever I can. If all goes as planned the second target usually dies and the first is left with very little hp as it is. It's not always possible, but when it is it's just plain awesome.
Lets say you want to cc a tree. Good luck with trying to sheep himHonestly, I understand this one the least. In order to deal burst damage, I can't rely on the slow-ticking bomb or FB that's susceptible to all sorts of interrupts and CCs, nor can I rely on the few FoF procs the Orb gives me. DF allows me to be a mindless lancer for at least 3 solid GCDs dealing decent damage. How is that not useful? With Glyph it's GCD-free as well. Even if the target trink the DF, it takes his trinket out of the picture for almost the remaining of the fight, which isn't too bad either. Could you please elaborate? Just checked again, and found that DF is not the prerequisite of 4x damage of the lance per se, sorry for the utter ignorance. However, it's still one of the few stuns we have.
You can configure these shortcuts in the game keybinds. Don't remember the exact name (not near game right now), but it's there in the keybinds 100%.Is there some macro that can /tar the first enemy player, the second enemy player, the previous/next enemy player, etc.? I usually click my arena frame, but that's a bit slow, especially when I can't find the cursor on the screen in the heat of battle.
No problems mate.Hope lynx will still read this and not disappointed by my late reply.
BTW, another important thing which I forgot, macros.
1. You need to macro your WE. Keep it always on passive, and macro your IL with petattack.
2. If you're rolling with DF glyph (should be in 2s), then you should macro your DF with IL.
3. The useful macros in pve (counterspell and poly for focus) aren't that useful in pvp and usually get in your way. Don't use them unless you can easily juggle your focused target. IMO it's much better to just switch targets and using the non macro spells or use clique with key modifiers.
4. Macro your orb with the on use damage trinket.
Re: A drill to initiate engagement in arena?
I have just finished my arena training this week, earning ~60 rating, but it gets exponentially harder.
Some feedbacks:
1. What I get used to the least is still LoS issue, especially in one of the maps (presumably set in Nagrand? Blade's Edge Mountains) where there's just too much terrain that gets into my way. A related concept is the "pillar laps" that I have little idea how to gain initiative in. Since I was a pure PvE player (still is, pretty much), this is something very new to me.
2. As I stay above 1300, many teams start to contain a healer, which I find much harder to handle. I can sheep and even DF the DPS a bit before diminishing return is too severe, but the healer is still very hard to burst down within the 3-4 GCDs of Counterspell. I can steal HoTs and bubbles, but that doesn't help much against Shaman or Hpally or Hpriest, to whom I've lost several matches tonight.
3. When facing two strong CCer that are determined to keep me out of combat, I can at most trink one and Blink a second (or should I Blink the first and trink the second?), but not much more. I fought a pair of cats earlier and spent most of the fight in Cyclone (don't their Cyclones share diminishing return?)
3. As per lynx recommended, I've macroed /petattack with my Lance to prevent accidental CC breaking, with good effect. I never put [@focus] with Counterspell in raids (mobs that casts dangerous spells are always my target anyway since they're better bursted down quickly before casting more), but I do put a /stopcasting with it, and I use the same macro in arena. The rest of the macros suggested by lynx are already employed (despite, due to my poor eyesight, I purchased an on-proc trinket by mistake, will replace once I get arena gears in other slots).
4. Cast RoF in every fight that contains melee, 1/3 got interrupted, 2/3 didn't take effect on anyone. In a fight I stood in my RoF and still got sapped, don't know how that's accomplished.
My arena setup is what's currently displayed in my Armory, accessible by clicking on my signature. I will keep it that way for 16 hours. Feel free to make any detailed suggestions regarding gems, enchants, reforges, talents and glyphs, but NOT asking me to buy what my Conquest point can't afford at the moment (that belt, however, is still within refunding time limit, so suggest a different piece if necessary).
Thanks again for all the responses!
Some feedbacks:
1. What I get used to the least is still LoS issue, especially in one of the maps (presumably set in Nagrand? Blade's Edge Mountains) where there's just too much terrain that gets into my way. A related concept is the "pillar laps" that I have little idea how to gain initiative in. Since I was a pure PvE player (still is, pretty much), this is something very new to me.
2. As I stay above 1300, many teams start to contain a healer, which I find much harder to handle. I can sheep and even DF the DPS a bit before diminishing return is too severe, but the healer is still very hard to burst down within the 3-4 GCDs of Counterspell. I can steal HoTs and bubbles, but that doesn't help much against Shaman or Hpally or Hpriest, to whom I've lost several matches tonight.
3. When facing two strong CCer that are determined to keep me out of combat, I can at most trink one and Blink a second (or should I Blink the first and trink the second?), but not much more. I fought a pair of cats earlier and spent most of the fight in Cyclone (don't their Cyclones share diminishing return?)
3. As per lynx recommended, I've macroed /petattack with my Lance to prevent accidental CC breaking, with good effect. I never put [@focus] with Counterspell in raids (mobs that casts dangerous spells are always my target anyway since they're better bursted down quickly before casting more), but I do put a /stopcasting with it, and I use the same macro in arena. The rest of the macros suggested by lynx are already employed (despite, due to my poor eyesight, I purchased an on-proc trinket by mistake, will replace once I get arena gears in other slots).
4. Cast RoF in every fight that contains melee, 1/3 got interrupted, 2/3 didn't take effect on anyone. In a fight I stood in my RoF and still got sapped, don't know how that's accomplished.
My arena setup is what's currently displayed in my Armory, accessible by clicking on my signature. I will keep it that way for 16 hours. Feel free to make any detailed suggestions regarding gems, enchants, reforges, talents and glyphs, but NOT asking me to buy what my Conquest point can't afford at the moment (that belt, however, is still within refunding time limit, so suggest a different piece if necessary).
Thanks again for all the responses!
Re: A drill to initiate engagement in arena?
2. Yes, to bring down a decent healer you need coordination with your teammate. Generally it's either cc dps and bring down healer, or cc healer and bring down dps. The latter usually works better at lower mmr. But generally you need to cc the one that is easier to be cc'ed and nuke the one that has fewer defensives.
3. Yes, of course, /spotcasting is a must. Ice Block also works as a trinket, not the most optimal use for it, but it's there. About that dps trinket, if you're hardcore you can race-change to human and keep two dps trinkets
4. In order for RoF to work the "target" must move inside the circle after it was placed. The animation happens sooner, it sucks and gives away your ring before it's really active.
5. Gear and talents.
Barrier is an ok talent and it has a great advantage of not suffering from fatigue, but I found it lacking because it's usually being purged. I usually take TS since it's harder to purge, though it does suffer from fatigue. Flameglow is another option, but usually it's taken when you're with a healer.
IB glyph is ok when facing casters, but usually I prefer taking either armors or poly.
You can take the minor illusion glyph to disorient some lower mmr teams
You still have some PvE items, so I'm just going to be a bit preemptive on this (instead of doing the hard work and down-scaling the items).
You might be interested in putting on some grievous items instead of pve, they're sold for honor and they provide you pvp power. Also, kill celestials each week.
Don't be over hit cap. Hit cap for max level pvp is 6%. Check inside arena how much you really have.
Always make sure your stats are in this order: haste>mastery>crit. According to armory it's not. But I'm not taking downs-scaling into account.
At these item levels (~550), gemming for secondaries is better than for pure int. Also I don't gem for pvp power, but then again I'm in full prideful, while you might use some extra pvp power.
3. Yes, of course, /spotcasting is a must. Ice Block also works as a trinket, not the most optimal use for it, but it's there. About that dps trinket, if you're hardcore you can race-change to human and keep two dps trinkets
4. In order for RoF to work the "target" must move inside the circle after it was placed. The animation happens sooner, it sucks and gives away your ring before it's really active.
5. Gear and talents.
Barrier is an ok talent and it has a great advantage of not suffering from fatigue, but I found it lacking because it's usually being purged. I usually take TS since it's harder to purge, though it does suffer from fatigue. Flameglow is another option, but usually it's taken when you're with a healer.
IB glyph is ok when facing casters, but usually I prefer taking either armors or poly.
You can take the minor illusion glyph to disorient some lower mmr teams
You still have some PvE items, so I'm just going to be a bit preemptive on this (instead of doing the hard work and down-scaling the items).
You might be interested in putting on some grievous items instead of pve, they're sold for honor and they provide you pvp power. Also, kill celestials each week.
Don't be over hit cap. Hit cap for max level pvp is 6%. Check inside arena how much you really have.
Always make sure your stats are in this order: haste>mastery>crit. According to armory it's not. But I'm not taking downs-scaling into account.
At these item levels (~550), gemming for secondaries is better than for pure int. Also I don't gem for pvp power, but then again I'm in full prideful, while you might use some extra pvp power.
Re: A drill to initiate engagement in arena?
Just a quick question before my training this week: My PvE pieces, scaled down to 540 by now, is overall better than 522 S14 pieces in every aspect except Power and Resilience. So the first line I quoted indicates they're important; but you advice me against gemming for Power, which indicates it's UNimportant. Isn't there any contradiction?...You might be interested in putting on some grievous items instead of pve...
...Also I don't gem for pvp power...
I don't have a problem getting full 522 gear in a day if I want, though. On US realms it's plainly impossible for the Horde to win AV and Isle of Conquest, I've never witnessed them winning anyway.
Re: A drill to initiate engagement in arena?
It's more about balancing stats rather than stacking a single stat. And power is just another stat in pvp.
I never done the proper maths on power, but it always felt somewhere between secondaries and primary. Stronger than haste and weaker than int. So I didn't gem for it because of double budget on haste gems. But neglecting the stat is also not a very good idea.
In raw numbers you get %1 power per 400 points, and you get %1 haste per 425 points. So both increase your dpet roughly the same with power having the upper edge.
So power is stronger than haste, but not enough to warrant gemming for it and loosing the double stat bonus.
Though this is not 100% accurate because relatively each % in haste is actually stronger than power (due to being usually lower because unlike haste power is on each item, and due to not using frost armor). But as I said before, I never really analyzed it and just went with my gut.
If you're ok with balancing power through gems while getting more secondaries from pve items then I think it's fine (though not entirely sure). It's just more of a headache with reforging because you need to manually figure out what stats your pve items have in arena.
Look at it this way, you loose 18 ilvls, but gain another stat on each item (although of lower budget). I think gaining a stat is better, but could be wrong.
EDIT:
BTW, you don't necessarily need to do random bgs (god knows I hate them). If you have plenty of JPs you can convert them to HPs and get some of those grievous items. Conversion rate sucks, but could be enough for what you need.
I never done the proper maths on power, but it always felt somewhere between secondaries and primary. Stronger than haste and weaker than int. So I didn't gem for it because of double budget on haste gems. But neglecting the stat is also not a very good idea.
In raw numbers you get %1 power per 400 points, and you get %1 haste per 425 points. So both increase your dpet roughly the same with power having the upper edge.
So power is stronger than haste, but not enough to warrant gemming for it and loosing the double stat bonus.
Though this is not 100% accurate because relatively each % in haste is actually stronger than power (due to being usually lower because unlike haste power is on each item, and due to not using frost armor). But as I said before, I never really analyzed it and just went with my gut.
If you're ok with balancing power through gems while getting more secondaries from pve items then I think it's fine (though not entirely sure). It's just more of a headache with reforging because you need to manually figure out what stats your pve items have in arena.
Look at it this way, you loose 18 ilvls, but gain another stat on each item (although of lower budget). I think gaining a stat is better, but could be wrong.
EDIT:
BTW, you don't necessarily need to do random bgs (god knows I hate them). If you have plenty of JPs you can convert them to HPs and get some of those grievous items. Conversion rate sucks, but could be enough for what you need.
Re: A drill to initiate engagement in arena?
PvP power isn't gemmed because you get either 80 PvP Power or 160 of a secondary stat; most of the time, having twice more of a secondary stat rating is worth more. Exception is if the alternative is gemming hit rating while you're capped (6% hit;expertise, take your gnome racial into account as well) or gemming stamina (which mages benefit little); then, you're better filling those blue slots with PvP Power. At ilvl 550, you should be in this situation.Just a quick question before my training this week: My PvE pieces, scaled down to 540 by now, is overall better than 522 S14 pieces in every aspect except Power and Resilience. So the first line I quoted indicates they're important; but you advice me against gemming for Power, which indicates it's UNimportant. Isn't there any contradiction?
PvP Power is very important to get, as you reach between 55% and 60% extra damage depending on trinkets. They just come mainly from gearing, though, not from gemming.
The trick for getting a good RoF is using it with your pet's Freeze. They can be used at the same time (since Freeze isn't on your global, but on the pet's), are ranged and stop melees from getting to you, so you don't sacrifice your positioning. This can be used right on the opener if you get to Freeze two players.I think you mean RoF. The problem with RoF is the 2 second arming timer that haste can't fix. With Charge+Pummel, Shadowstep+Kick or similar combinations that most melee classes have, it's very hard to get it off when the melee has already begun coming my way. The advice of using it to counter pillar-lapping is useful, though, and I'll practice this trick.
This trick alone should get you a 50% success rate by itself. For a better rate, you must be aware of using it after any ranged interrupt, stun or incapacitate from them was spent, like Storm Bolt, or when anyone with these interrupts is controlled, like using Counterspell for its silence on a mage or shaman.
Charge can't be used while rooted, take advantage of that.
Building Icicles is important if you want to have the most burst that the class can offer; each icicle usually have 20-25k dmg stored form a critical FB or FFB. With 5 icicles, you have 100-125k dmg stored ready, 200-250k with Alter Time. That's worth 3 or 4 FoF procs, more sometimes. This makes Frost a highly bursty spec, perfectly comparable to Fire's and Arcane's burst.icicles
They are also another reason why Frost doesn't need to use Deep Freeze for burst and can use it as a cc; you deal most damage with FoF procs and strong Icicles stored being doubled by Alter Time, not by keeping a chain of strong Ice Lances. Since they are launched automatically by casting IL, they are also free of GCD, letting you deal tons of damage with minimal GCD expediture; that leaves very little reaction time to healers and maximizes how much you get from your ccs.
You typically build them by keeping Living Bomb and using whenever the Brain freeze procs appear. Don't expend FoF procs immediately (though far easier when you have a healer), unless for a Deep freeze, while building icicles. You can also build strong icicles with Freeze -> Frostbolt, especially if you froze more than one target. Be careful about interrupts and melees, though.
Make sure to time it with your partner's burst. CC any healer or peeler, have one cc as a backup (usually Deep Freeze) and burst together.
More later on.
Re: A drill to initiate engagement in arena?
Thank you for your reply, Aowyn.
After some trials, this is the most convenient way I can cast RoF and Freeze in quick succession:
I'll practice its usage for a few rounds and attempt to use it in the training session tomorrow. Thanks!
After some trials, this is the most convenient way I can cast RoF and Freeze in quick succession:
Code: Select all
#showtooltip
/cast [mod:shift]Ring of Frost; FreezeRe: A drill to initiate engagement in arena?
1. Against people using LoS against you, there isn't that much you can do as a mage, especially if the target you are chasing is a rogue or a druid. Most of the time, it is up to your partner to position himself in a way that, if your opponent hides from you, he is vulnerable to your partner. You have some tricks, though:I have just finished my arena training this week, earning ~60 rating, but it gets exponentially harder.
Some feedbacks:
1. What I get used to the least is still LoS issue, especially in one of the maps (presumably set in Nagrand? Blade's Edge Mountains) where there's just too much terrain that gets into my way. A related concept is the "pillar laps" that I have little idea how to gain initiative in. Since I was a pure PvE player (still is, pretty much), this is something very new to me.
2. As I stay above 1300, many teams start to contain a healer, which I find much harder to handle. I can sheep and even DF the DPS a bit before diminishing return is too severe, but the healer is still very hard to burst down within the 3-4 GCDs of Counterspell. I can steal HoTs and bubbles, but that doesn't help much against Shaman or Hpally or Hpriest, to whom I've lost several matches tonight.
3. When facing two strong CCer that are determined to keep me out of combat, I can at most trink one and Blink a second (or should I Blink the first and trink the second?), but not much more. I fought a pair of cats earlier and spent most of the fight in Cyclone (don't their Cyclones share diminishing return?)
3. As per lynx recommended, I've macroed /petattack with my Lance to prevent accidental CC breaking, with good effect. I never put [@focus] with Counterspell in raids (mobs that casts dangerous spells are always my target anyway since they're better bursted down quickly before casting more), but I do put a /stopcasting with it, and I use the same macro in arena. The rest of the macros suggested by lynx are already employed (despite, due to my poor eyesight, I purchased an on-proc trinket by mistake, will replace once I get arena gears in other slots).
4. Cast RoF in every fight that contains melee, 1/3 got interrupted, 2/3 didn't take effect on anyone. In a fight I stood in my RoF and still got sapped, don't know how that's accomplished.
- - Alter Time: you can activate AT and continue following your target. Once he's near your original position, go back in time and proceed with Deep freeze, Cone of Cold, Frost Nova or PoM+Poly.
- Blink and Blazing Speed: both are useful for chasing pillar humpers. They aren't of much use against opponents with perma-sprints, such as rogues and druids.
- Water Elemental: place him in a fixed position and continue the chase. Your opponent will be in a spot susceptible to your elemental's Freeze, giving you time to catch him.
2. Mage/hunter isn't a good comp to deal with healers, as the main cc of each class (Polymorph and Freezing Trap) shares the same DR. See spoilers if you don't know much about DR.
Spoiler:
- - priests (Fear DR on Psychic Scream)
- rogues (Blind counts as a Fear DR category)
- warlocks (Fear)
- druids (Cyclone DRs only with itself)
- warriors (Intimidating Roar)
- paladins (talent "Evil is a Point of View" makes their Turn Evil a fear castable on players)
3. The on-proc trinket isn't bad; it is actually the most used one by Frost mages. It provides the most sustained damage and its proc gives more int than that of the on-use one. If you can time your burst with it, you end bursting harder than with the on-use trinket.
4. Sap has a 10yd range, it isn't really a melee skill. That's the same radius of your RoF. It is very easy to sap some one on a Ring, actually, so don't count on it. And you might have tried to use RoF on someone that was already sheeped three times; both spells share the same Incapacitate DR. That, or the melee was using something that negates CC spells, like Anti-Magic Shell, Desecrated Ground, Cloak of Shadows and Bladestorm.
Re: A drill to initiate engagement in arena?
Today, I did some 3s with my arena trainer and the raid leader of my guild, the latter brought a Restoration Druid that has minimal 522 gear and NO 550 gear (he doesn't have a single piece of 550 gear across all his toons, nor does he need as a raid leader). We were able to achieve 1140 rating in an afternoon by winning 14 of the 28 fights.
This time, just like Aowyn stated (predicted?) in another reply to my post on the General board, I feel my bottleneck is not quite about knowing myself, but more about knowing my opponents. I have minimal experience in playing alts (lvl 90 Blood/Frost, lvl 90 Discipline/Holy, lvl 90 Assassination/Combat, lvl 88 Restoration/Elemental, and the rest are minor alts I'm not familiar with at all), and I can't even tell the name of many abilities by visual effect only.
Therefore, instead of asking very general questions, I'd love to invite lynx and Aowyn, among others, to give some tips/guidelines against specific classes and specs.
1. This didn't come from the arena today, but from my trial duel with my Guild Master last night. He Stealth at the start, I tried to spam AE to fish him out, but he still sapped me. I WE Freezed him once he started the attack and then ran out of melee, but before I could move further, he got away with Every Man for Himself, Sprint and Kidney Shot me. I Blinked away, but he immediately caught up with Shadowstep and Gouged me. I trinked away, but then I got CCed immediately (presumably Vanish+Cheap Shot), and before I could get away, he blown Vendetta, Shadowblade and what-not and two-shot me. In the entire process I wasn't able to go offensive for even a single GCD. What is the correct strategy to deal with this situation? P.S. My Guild Master, just like my Raid Leader, is pure PvE player and don't have a single piece of arena gear, no trinket either. I'll surely be even more passive if he has a trinket.
2. What to do if Agony+Corruption+UA are on me? I certainly can't dispel UA, nor can I request my healer to do so (if there is one), but they ticks very painfully. GInv can remove two of them, but apparently the side effect of removing UA still applies, and the opponent can easily re-apply them with 1 single GCD. Honestly, this is not about arena alone. There is a notorious Blood Elf on our realm, who sits right at the entrance of Shrine of Seven Stars all day long in 582 raiding gear, copy and paste Agony+Corruption+UA on every single Alliance player passing by. She's supported by two healers and her raiding gear has tons of Stamina, so it's not easy to burst her down, but if left alone she easily kills every one in and out of the Shrine, regardless of class, gear, etc. How should I cope with such harassment?
3. How should I deal with a stream of Inferno Blast + Pyroblast, followed by a Combustion? I found that if I ever allow the opponent's Heating Up to proc, it's a series of very hard-hitting, crit-guaranteed, instant cast spells, and the opponent can even Ice Block immediately after Combustion and watch me die. Is there still hope if his Heating Up has already procced?
4. I've failed to Counterspell the Holy Pally opponents for countless times, as if they had some ability that prevent them from being interrupted. Could anyone please link the ability if one actually exist, and give me some general tips on dealing with Holy Pally?
5. What's the correct way to counter being continuously engaged in CQC via a chain of Charge, Heroic Leap and Intervene?
This time, just like Aowyn stated (predicted?) in another reply to my post on the General board, I feel my bottleneck is not quite about knowing myself, but more about knowing my opponents. I have minimal experience in playing alts (lvl 90 Blood/Frost, lvl 90 Discipline/Holy, lvl 90 Assassination/Combat, lvl 88 Restoration/Elemental, and the rest are minor alts I'm not familiar with at all), and I can't even tell the name of many abilities by visual effect only.
Therefore, instead of asking very general questions, I'd love to invite lynx and Aowyn, among others, to give some tips/guidelines against specific classes and specs.
1. This didn't come from the arena today, but from my trial duel with my Guild Master last night. He Stealth at the start, I tried to spam AE to fish him out, but he still sapped me. I WE Freezed him once he started the attack and then ran out of melee, but before I could move further, he got away with Every Man for Himself, Sprint and Kidney Shot me. I Blinked away, but he immediately caught up with Shadowstep and Gouged me. I trinked away, but then I got CCed immediately (presumably Vanish+Cheap Shot), and before I could get away, he blown Vendetta, Shadowblade and what-not and two-shot me. In the entire process I wasn't able to go offensive for even a single GCD. What is the correct strategy to deal with this situation? P.S. My Guild Master, just like my Raid Leader, is pure PvE player and don't have a single piece of arena gear, no trinket either. I'll surely be even more passive if he has a trinket.
2. What to do if Agony+Corruption+UA are on me? I certainly can't dispel UA, nor can I request my healer to do so (if there is one), but they ticks very painfully. GInv can remove two of them, but apparently the side effect of removing UA still applies, and the opponent can easily re-apply them with 1 single GCD. Honestly, this is not about arena alone. There is a notorious Blood Elf on our realm, who sits right at the entrance of Shrine of Seven Stars all day long in 582 raiding gear, copy and paste Agony+Corruption+UA on every single Alliance player passing by. She's supported by two healers and her raiding gear has tons of Stamina, so it's not easy to burst her down, but if left alone she easily kills every one in and out of the Shrine, regardless of class, gear, etc. How should I cope with such harassment?
3. How should I deal with a stream of Inferno Blast + Pyroblast, followed by a Combustion? I found that if I ever allow the opponent's Heating Up to proc, it's a series of very hard-hitting, crit-guaranteed, instant cast spells, and the opponent can even Ice Block immediately after Combustion and watch me die. Is there still hope if his Heating Up has already procced?
4. I've failed to Counterspell the Holy Pally opponents for countless times, as if they had some ability that prevent them from being interrupted. Could anyone please link the ability if one actually exist, and give me some general tips on dealing with Holy Pally?
5. What's the correct way to counter being continuously engaged in CQC via a chain of Charge, Heroic Leap and Intervene?
Re: A drill to initiate engagement in arena?
Today, I did some 3s with my arena trainer and the raid leader of my guild, the latter brought a Restoration Druid that has minimal 522 gear and NO 550 gear (he doesn't have a single piece of 550 gear across all his toons, nor does he need as a raid leader). We were able to achieve 1140 rating in an afternoon by winning 14 of the 28 fights.
This time, just like Aowyn stated (predicted?) in another reply to my post on the General board, I feel my bottleneck is not quite about knowing myself, but more about knowing my opponents. I have minimal experience in playing alts (lvl 90 Blood/Frost, lvl 90 Discipline/Holy, lvl 90 Assassination/Combat, lvl 88 Restoration/Elemental, and the rest are minor alts I'm not familiar with at all), and I can't even tell the name of many abilities by visual effect only.
Therefore, instead of asking very general questions, I'd love to invite lynx and Aowyn, among others, to give some tips/guidelines against specific classes and specs.
1. This didn't come from the arena today, but from my trial duel with my Guild Master last night. He Stealth at the start, I tried to spam AE to fish him out, but he still sapped me. I WE Freezed him once he started the attack and then ran out of melee, but before I could move further, he got away with Every Man for Himself, Sprint and Kidney Shot me. I Blinked away, but he immediately caught up with Shadowstep and Gouged me. I trinked away, but then I got CCed immediately (presumably Vanish+Cheap Shot), and before I could get away, he blown Vendetta, Shadowblade and what-not and two-shot me. In the entire process I wasn't able to go offensive for even a single GCD. What is the correct strategy to deal with this situation? P.S. My Guild Master, just like my Raid Leader, is pure PvE player and don't have a single piece of arena gear, no trinket either. I'll surely be even more passive if he has a trinket.
2. What to do if Agony+Corruption+UA are on me? I certainly can't dispel UA, nor can I request my healer to do so (if there is one), but they ticks very painfully. GInv can remove two of them, but apparently the side effect of removing UA still applies, and the opponent can easily re-apply them with 1 single GCD. Honestly, this is not about arena alone. There is a notorious Blood Elf on our realm, who sits right at the entrance of Shrine of Seven Stars all day long in 582 raiding gear, copy and paste Agony+Corruption+UA on every single Alliance player passing by. She's supported by two healers and her raiding gear has tons of Stamina, so it's not easy to burst her down, but if left alone she easily kills every one in and out of the Shrine, regardless of class, gear, etc. How should I cope with such harassment?
3. How should I deal with a stream of Inferno Blast + Pyroblast, followed by a Combustion? I found that if I ever allow the opponent's Heating Up to proc, it's a series of very hard-hitting, crit-guaranteed, instant cast spells, and the opponent can even Ice Block immediately after Combustion and watch me die. Is there still hope if his Heating Up has already procced?
4. I've failed to Counterspell the Holy Pally opponents for countless times, as if they had some ability that prevent them from being interrupted. Could anyone please link the ability if one actually exist, and give me some general tips on dealing with Holy Pally?
5. What's the correct way to counter being continuously engaged in CQC via a chain of Charge, Heroic Leap and Intervene?
1. There's a good mage vs rogue video from Xaryu in youtube: http://youtu.be/eGb9Bo1y6MU" target="_blank. He's a gladiator mage that is often among the top 10 players in the Americas.
Mage vs rogue is a cooldown conservation war, with the rogue starting with the initiative. You'll rarely get him before he saps you, but you may have a chance with Glyph of Arcane Explosion.
To win this duel, you must use Ice Block, Cold Snap, trinket and Alter Time wisely, as you need to last longer than his offensive with http://www.wowhead.com/spell=31224" target="_blank, http://www.wowhead.com/spell=1856" target="_blank, http://www.wowhead.com/spell=14185" target="_blank, http://www.wowhead.com/spell=2094" target="_blank and http://www.wowhead.com/spell=76577" target="_blank, plus the offensive cooldown of his spec. Ice Ward and Blazing Speed are particularly useful here.
Once the rogue is out of cooldowns, you are finally able to kill him. Until then, the rogue will have an answer to every offense you may try. Despite that, you'll want to stay aggressive the entire match, as any answer you force him to use against your spells is also one less cooldown he can use to keep his offense on you.
2. You can dispel http://www.wowhead.com/spell=131737" target="_blank. That is a curse, is a huge component of his damage and isn't tied to Unstable Magic, which is a magic debuff. Since mages can dispel curses, and only curses, you are free to dispel Agony (and http://www.wowhead.com/spell=1490" target="_blank too) every 8s without repercution.
Affliction warlocks are among the best casters right now, and one of the most survivable. You'll have a very hard time killing him while he has two healers. You're better ask for the help of a good warrior and/or rogue, as these two classes seem to be particularly punishing for a lock to face. Time your offensive cooldowns with Smoke Bomb and after he uses trinket and http://www.wowhead.com/spell=108482" target="_blank, so the healers can't help him survive.
Having a spriest and/or destro lock can also be effective to kill him at once, as both have good cc coordination with mages and massive burst to unleash in a Deep Freeze. God Comp (mage/spriest/rdruid) is one of the comps with the best chance to beat lock comps.
3. Spellsteal, mostly. Pyroblast's proc is dispellable, and dispelling his Arcane Brilliance helps preventing him from getting too many crits. That's one of the main weaknesses of Fire, everyone just spam dispels on him in arena and he ends almost without damage.
Make sure to have a /cancelaura Pyroblast! macro, so he can't steal the Pyro proc back.
4. http://www.wowhead.com/spell=31821/devotion-aura" target="_blank
If you have a good burst comp, you can consider bursting on him after he uses his http://www.wowhead.com/spell=642" target="_blank. Paladins are very susceptible to magic damage and have few heal-over-time effects to keep them alive if they are interrupted in their only school of magic.
Warriors and priests can remove his bubble with http://www.wowhead.com/spell=64382" target="_blank and glyphed http://www.wowhead.com/spell=32375" target="_blank . In this case, you don't even need to wait him to use bubble in order to kill him, just get a counter on a cast.
Pay attention to http://www.wowhead.com/spell=31842" target="_blank, it is an excellent buff to spellsteal. Also, don't try to win in a mana war, as paladins are extremely mana efficient; your healer is likely to end oom before him.
5. In arenas, you'll need the peeling of your teammates, as the warrior will also receive a lot of help from his own partners to keep on you. http://www.wowhead.com/spell=1044" target="_blank, http://www.wowhead.com/spell=5782" target="_blank, http://www.wowhead.com/spell=61391" target="_blank and so on are all abilities that can be used to help you, or against you. It's hard to give you tips without knowing which comps are fighting.
For duel tips, you can see in the other post.
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