Sugge's [Mage] Guide to Blackrock Foundry [Heroic/Mythic]

[Sugg3]

Since Mages generally lacks the essential Crit for playing Fire during progression, we should instead continue to opt. for playing mostly Arcane during progression in both Heroic and Mythic difficulty.

I didn't even notice this until Dutch mentioned it.

I think this claim is poorly made and not supported by any evidence. As we've seen on both WCL and sims, Fire is by far the strongest throughput on any cleave/AOE fight. This applies regardless of what gear you have, and isn't changed by "lacking crit".

It indeed is poorly written, and I'm sorry for any misleadings it might have caused. Much like @Vatti stated some posts above here. Arcane is going to be the go-to spec for alot of Mythic encounters (atleast 7), now I know this is a Heroic guide and Fire will do just fine for alot of these bosses. But Heroic is only a gateway into Mythic progression and when we finally get there, we are still set as Arcane and that is to this date, the main reason to opt. for it.

[zhengma]

After one week in BRF, I'm now re-evaluating this "GI v.s. Cauterize" argument.

During the week, I've been one-shot by all kinds of things: being stamped to death, being rolled to death, being run over by a train are just some of the more foreseeable ones. The other CoDs include http://www.wowhead.com/spell=155080 because too few people are stacking with me, http://www.wowhead.com/spell=156324 because the tank doesn't have enough cooldowns, etc.

This weekend, they brought in a new mage for trial. And people praised his survivability. Then I looked at the log and found that his Cauterize triggered 13 times last night alone, about triple the # of premature deaths I had that night. I reported it and people were like "So what? We healed him through his Cauterize and he fight some more, while you lie on the floor and be carried."

I agree with Sugge and probably many else that GI is, in the long run, a superior talent. However, I have to deal with the fact that I lack the beta/PTR experience that Sugge has, and a bit short of reflexes and awareness, that I might not be able to use GI optimally. I'm thinking of switching to Cauterize and see if that can save me some more disgrace.

EDIT: WCL entries as a reference: Saturday, Sunday.

[BioBall]

After one week in BRF, I'm now re-evaluating this "GI v.s. Cauterize" argument.

During the week, I've been one-shot by all kinds of things: being stamped to death, being rolled to death, being run over by a train are just some of the more foreseeable ones. The other CoDs include http://www.wowhead.com/spell=155080 because too few people are stacking with me, http://www.wowhead.com/spell=156324 because the tank doesn't have enough cooldowns, etc.

This weekend, they brought in a new mage for trial. And people praised his survivability. Then I looked at the log and found that his Cauterize triggered 13 times last night alone, about triple the # of premature deaths I had that night. I reported it and people were like "So what? We healed him through his Cauterize and he fight some more, while you lie on the floor and be carried."

I agree with Sugge and probably many else that GI is, in the long run, a superior talent. However, I have to deal with the fact that I lack the beta/PTR experience that Sugge has, and a bit short of reflexes and awareness, that I might not be able to use GI optimally. I'm thinking of switching to Cauterize and see if that can save me some more disgrace.

EDIT: WCL entries as a reference: Saturday, Sunday.

I like Cauterize on encounters where I don't specifically need G invis to counter a mechanic. It's a much easier ability to play around.

[M4D]

The more personal and raid wide skill there is, the more GI shines. If your raid tend to suck or if you (or any mage) suck, cauterize will become priceless. Trouble is if you fail you can always improve and get GI, if you die due to tank fails you can't do much hence why cauterize is good in those cases.
However, during progress, cauterize can indeed be a nice little help if not used to the mechanics.
It's a shame GI has such potential I'd love to have my cauterize back though.

PS : You can invis the train if you see it at the last second btw. Shouldn't be a problem with Thogar helper though.

[Sugg3]

After one week in BRF, I'm now re-evaluating this "GI v.s. Cauterize" argument.

During the week, I've been one-shot by all kinds of things: being stamped to death, being rolled to death, being run over by a train are just some of the more foreseeable ones. The other CoDs include http://www.wowhead.com/spell=155080 because too few people are stacking with me, http://www.wowhead.com/spell=156324 because the tank doesn't have enough cooldowns, etc.

This weekend, they brought in a new mage for trial. And people praised his survivability. Then I looked at the log and found that his Cauterize triggered 13 times last night alone, about triple the # of premature deaths I had that night. I reported it and people were like "So what? We healed him through his Cauterize and he fight some more, while you lie on the floor and be carried."

I agree with Sugge and probably many else that GI is, in the long run, a superior talent. However, I have to deal with the fact that I lack the beta/PTR experience that Sugge has, and a bit short of reflexes and awareness, that I might not be able to use GI optimally. I'm thinking of switching to Cauterize and see if that can save me some more disgrace.

EDIT: WCL entries as a reference: Saturday, Sunday.

I like Cauterize on encounters where I don't specifically need G invis to counter a mechanic. It's a much easier ability to play around.

Indeed, will update the guide today.

[Sugg3]

However, during progress, cauterize can indeed be a nice little help if not used to the mechanics.
It's a shame GI has such potential I'd love to have my cauterize back though.

I couldn't agree more.

[Sugg3]

After one week in BRF, I'm now re-evaluating this "GI v.s. Cauterize" argument.

During the week, I've been one-shot by all kinds of things: being stamped to death, being rolled to death, being run over by a train are just some of the more foreseeable ones. The other CoDs include http://www.wowhead.com/spell=155080 because too few people are stacking with me, http://www.wowhead.com/spell=156324 because the tank doesn't have enough cooldowns, etc.

This weekend, they brought in a new mage for trial. And people praised his survivability. Then I looked at the log and found that his Cauterize triggered 13 times last night alone, about triple the # of premature deaths I had that night. I reported it and people were like "So what? We healed him through his Cauterize and he fight some more, while you lie on the floor and be carried."

I agree with Sugge and probably many else that GI is, in the long run, a superior talent. However, I have to deal with the fact that I lack the beta/PTR experience that Sugge has, and a bit short of reflexes and awareness, that I might not be able to use GI optimally. I'm thinking of switching to Cauterize and see if that can save me some more disgrace.

EDIT: WCL entries as a reference: Saturday, Sunday.

You're completely right, Cauterize will be superior on fights where you can't "really" predict how much incoming damage you're going to take. Like the examples you make, Gruul and Oregorger. Will update the guide during the day.

Thanks for bringing this to my attention. I had completely forgotten this :S

[M4D]

Btw it's not much but glyphing AE for Kromog can hit 10 hands (maybe more ?) if placed at the right spot.

[Joban]

While we're still at it: Rank 1 Arcane on Blast Furnce, yay. /flex. This time it actually survived more than a few hours!
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/7 ... pec=Arcane" target="_blank

I tried this on a couple blast furnace attempts and was getting very poor results, so I switched to fire and added about 15k dps, mainly so I didn't get booted from the group . I agree that the controlled burst of arcane on specific adds is a huge bonus, so can you run through your basic strat for using arcane orb on a fight like this? I must be doing something wrong. Sorry I don't have any logs to compare to yours, as I was just messing around in a pug this weekend while doing this boss.

[Garrod]

Yeah Cauterize is my usual go-to for that tier for progression/know I'm not going to cheese mechanics with G.I.

That said I finally went and got my gear prepared for playing Arcane heavy for Mythic BRF. I could get away with Fire's subpar single target in Mythic Highmaul but just from seeing what the tuning was like in Heroic BRF I'm not going to be able to main it for every fight on Mythic -_-.

#1 Fire parse on Heroic Gruul survived the week though at least lol.

[gameorg]

I kinda have the same experience with cauterize. It saved me quite a few times, and i suggested the other mage to use it aswell, but he refused to do it, implying its a noob ability. In the end he died WAY more than me that raid.

Its not a noob ability at all. You have to get used to Boss Encounters, and Cauterize is the perfect tool to learn by failing but not dieing. For progression, go Cauterize, and when you learned the encounter, optimize dmg mitignation by GI. When i ran BRF the second time i switche to GI

[gameorg]

As Arcane you're going to want with go with http://www.wowhead.com/item=113876/toot ... ps&bonus=0 as off piece since they have...
1. Mastery and Haste as secondary stats, being the best stats for Arcane.
2. http://www.wowhead.com/item=115552/arca ... es&bonus=0 has Crit and Haste on them, which are the second worst combination of seconary stats for the T17 set for Arcane specifically.

Same principle will go for Fire which you can read about under Coin List.

Keep posting questions like this so I can update and make the guide as direct and clear as possible!

Sorry to ask the same question again - but in a raid with other people it doesn't make sense to go for 5 different set pieces (3 same, +pants for Arc, +gloves for Fire) when others are competing for vanq 4 sets, right? The offset pants (Turret mechanic legs) seem like they can be the best choice with mastery and crit, to support both specs (since set pants have multi).

Of course you should not go directly for five different set pieces, that would just be rude. Take note that I posted that statement under the impression that we were talking about "bonus rolls". Meaning that IF you are planning on playing as Fire at any point. Definitely roll on this boss, since you will not only have a chance to obtain a set piece, you will also have a chance to loot the optimal off-piece (legs in this case) to use when playing as Fire.

I did some Math with Statweights from the respective Threads, and double checked it with Simcraft (BiS Gear)

The Gain from Using Gloves Offpiece over Legs is 60 DPS for Arcane
The Gain from Using Legs Offpiece over Gloves is 160 for Fire

This is Single Target though. Expect the Gain from Fire to be bigger than 160 with the scaling of Mastery, since you only use that spec for Multi Target Fights anyway.

I guess 60 DPS is hardly a reason to go for 4 different items. Its depending on how many encounters we will actually play Fire in Mythic i guess.

My personal conclusion on this is to roll on both and take what i get first.

The standard Sim Profile for Fire also uses Robes Offpiece over Legs, which is a DPS loss of 500. (Single Target).

[Sugg3]

Of course you should not go directly for five different set pieces, that would just be rude. Take note that I posted that statement under the impression that we were talking about "bonus rolls". Meaning that IF you are planning on playing as Fire at any point. Definitely roll on this boss, since you will not only have a chance to obtain a set piece, you will also have a chance to loot the optimal off-piece (legs in this case) to use when playing as Fire.

I did some Math with Statweights from the respective Threads, and double checked it with Simcraft (BiS Gear)

The Gain from Using Gloves Offpiece over Legs is 60 DPS for Arcane
The Gain from Using Legs Offpiece over Gloves is 160 for Fire

This is Single Target though. Expect the Gain from Fire to be bigger than 160 with the scaling of Mastery, since you only use that spec for Multi Target Fights anyway.

I guess 60 DPS is hardly a reason to go for 4 different items. Its depending on how many encounters we will actually play Fire in Mythic i guess.

My personal conclusion on this is to roll on both and take what i get first.

The standard Sim Profile for Fire also uses Robes Offpiece over Legs, which is a DPS loss of 500. (Single Target).

Indeed, the damage from using the different off pieces comes down to the -000 range and there is "really" no need to go for "optimal" off piece, but that was what I mentioned and I ended up doing excactly as you are planning to do. Roll on every tier boss and just hope to get the 4-set, and will now AFTERWARDS to try optimize. I'm sorry if I messed things up which I do realise that I might just have done.

As how Fire goes... during progress we'll probably be playing it on 2-3 bosses in Mythic difficulty.

[Sugg3]

Btw it's not much but glyphing AE for Kromog can hit 10 hands (maybe more ?) if placed at the right spot.

Yes, the hitbox of the Grasps are much wider then they look so AE will hit ALOT of targets.

[gameorg]

Of course you should not go directly for five different set pieces, that would just be rude. Take note that I posted that statement under the impression that we were talking about "bonus rolls". Meaning that IF you are planning on playing as Fire at any point. Definitely roll on this boss, since you will not only have a chance to obtain a set piece, you will also have a chance to loot the optimal off-piece (legs in this case) to use when playing as Fire.

I did some Math with Statweights from the respective Threads, and double checked it with Simcraft (BiS Gear)

The Gain from Using Gloves Offpiece over Legs is 60 DPS for Arcane
The Gain from Using Legs Offpiece over Gloves is 160 for Fire

This is Single Target though. Expect the Gain from Fire to be bigger than 160 with the scaling of Mastery, since you only use that spec for Multi Target Fights anyway.

I guess 60 DPS is hardly a reason to go for 4 different items. Its depending on how many encounters we will actually play Fire in Mythic i guess.

My personal conclusion on this is to roll on both and take what i get first.

The standard Sim Profile for Fire also uses Robes Offpiece over Legs, which is a DPS loss of 500. (Single Target).

Indeed, the damage from using the different off pieces comes down to the -000 range and there is "really" no need to go for "optimal" off piece, but that was what I mentioned and I ended up doing excactly as you are planning to do. Roll on every tier boss and just hope to get the 4-set, and will now AFTERWARDS to try optimize. I'm sorry if I messed things up which I do realise that I might just have done.

As how Fire goes... during progress we'll probably be playing it on 2-3 bosses in Mythic difficulty.

no need to apologize for your awesome work . I just wanted to add some math to the discussion and it provides us a nice conclusion.

[Sugg3]

can you run through your basic strat for using arcane orb on a fight like this? I must be doing something wrong. Sorry I don't have any logs to compare to yours, as I was just messing around in a pug this weekend while doing this boss.

I completely missed this quesiton, sorry for that. What you wanna do with Arcane Orb is to effectivly keep you stacks high, while still reseting them. So basically, if you wanna kill the Operator on one side, and the pack of Faldar and other guys are on the other side, follow these steps...

play like normal -> reset -> turn around to the big group -> arcane orb to gain 3-4 stacks -> continue as normal
and continue to reset your stacks when you are going low (aprox sub 88 %).

So basically this is the way to be extremely mana efficient and will assure you aswell to remain at high stacks as much as possible. (You wanna avoid doing 1-2-3-4, better to reset and gain full stacks instead) ^^.

Hope this gave you some clarification.

[Sugg3]

Yeah Cauterize is my usual go-to for that tier for progression/know I'm not going to cheese mechanics with G.I.

To answer both you and Joban at the same time and like I believe I said some posts ago, Cauterize is going to be good on fights where your G.I don't have that much potential. For example a fight like Gruul, Cauterize will do better since you can only effectivly mitage a few of the slices (which won't necessarily help your healers), and taking into account that some people might not be stacked where they should could lead to you getting one shottet. Cauterize might then save you at those specific mechanics, but only on these type of encounters.

G.I is generally going to be better on fights where a single member can mitigate a ton of damage, otherwise run with Cauterize.

Worth taking into account though is that during Mythic progression, G.I might work better on fights where Cauterize seems superior, due to higher combat structure with other damage mitigations and so on.

[Latonius]

Is it possible for Sugge post his logs? Especially for Darmoc and Operator because he recommends going un-glyphed Combustion and Kindling but most of my own damage comes from Living Bomb. I just want to see the DPS breakdowns for his Fire AOE/Cleave fights.

[Dutchmagoz]

Since Mages generally lacks the essential Crit for playing Fire during progression, we should instead continue to opt. for playing mostly Arcane during progression in both Heroic and Mythic difficulty.

I didn't even notice this until Dutch mentioned it.

I think this claim is poorly made and not supported by any evidence. As we've seen on both WCL and sims, Fire is by far the strongest throughput on any cleave/AOE fight. This applies regardless of what gear you have, and isn't changed by "lacking crit".

It indeed is poorly written, and I'm sorry for any misleadings it might have caused. Much like @Vatti stated some posts above here. Arcane is going to be the go-to spec for alot of Mythic encounters (atleast 7), now I know this is a Heroic guide and Fire will do just fine for alot of these bosses. But Heroic is only a gateway into Mythic progression and when we finally get there, we are still set as Arcane and that is to this date, the main reason to opt. for it.

I disagree a bit here. There's a lot of fights where fire is better, and a lot which are argueable and it depends on your raid comp. Example where fire is better/equal: (Talking about mythic here, focusing on what's best for the boss, not padding/total dps)

Fire:
Blast Furnace (depends how much cleave you got, and your job on the fight, can go either)
Beastlord (arcane could do better, depends how fast the adds die and if thus you gain good boss dmg from lb)
Hans and Franz (no argueing)
Operator (no argueing)
Iron Maidens (no argueing)
Flamebender (could be arcane, but if you do the stack 4 wolves strat, fire wins easily)

Arcane is a clear winner on gruul, oregorger, kromog and blackhand. All the others are very argueable or fire favoured.

[Soggs]

Since the thread reached quite some popularity it is now pinned to the top of the board.