Prophecy of Fear [Megathread]

Anything mage specific not covered by any of the other subforums, like raid instance guides for mages.
Mortiferus
Posts: 46
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2015 7:25 pm

Re: Prophecy of Fear (Work in progress) [Megathread]

Unread postby Mortiferus Fri Jul 10, 2015 8:21 pm

Is it possible in WA or by creating an addon that tracks who has the debuff, and is then clickable so that you would focus that target?
Unless Blizzard has changed their APIs significantly from the last time I dabbled, I believe this would actually be impossible.

For starters, enemies generally do not have unique IDs. Imagine, for example, that you wanted to write a macro to create a focus target on demand. You would have something like:

Code: Select all

/target SomeMob /focus
The issue with this is that there could be multiple mobs named "SomeMob"—you have no way in code to guarantee that you target and create the focus on the precise mob you want, which is why it would be problematic to code that in.

The other, bigger issue is that Blizzard does (or at least did) prohibit certain code actions once you're in combat, for a variety of reasons. There are certain API calls that are effectively locked in combat. One of those is setting the attributes that determine target and focus (in the API, the SetAttributes call is flagged as "nocombat", which is Blizzard's internal property for designating a call that cannot be made in combat).

All of this is to say—while the actual code to change, say, Tidy Plates to allow you to create a focus frame on click for a mob debuffed with "Mark of Doom" is relatively short & simple (maybe 3 lines of code), Blizzard specifically forbids some of that code from running while in combat. In short, I do not believe an addon can create a new frame (focus or otherwise) on-click while in combat. The best you can do is have Tidy Frames show which mob(s) has the debuff, have a WA to shout at you when it procs anywhere, and manually adjust your target accordingly.

Update: I dug into the API and confirmed that setting these attributes are still locked in combat. Blizzard made this change primarily to prevent bots from being able to automate combat actions. So indeed, this is impossible. You'll need to track the debuff via Tidy Plates or the like, notify yourself via WA or the like, and then manually adjust targeting and/or focus.
Zelendria
Posts: 139
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2015 1:04 pm

Re: Prophecy of Fear (Work in progress) [Megathread]

Unread postby Zelendria Fri Jul 10, 2015 9:14 pm

Thanks for the explantion.
I take it that's how Combustion helper works? It knows a mob named <whatever> has LB, but doesn't know which one specifically?

Might have missed it but can 2T18 pets cause Doom to explode?
Mortiferus
Posts: 46
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2015 7:25 pm

Re: Prophecy of Fear (Work in progress) [Megathread]

Unread postby Mortiferus Fri Jul 10, 2015 9:17 pm

Might have missed it but can 2T18 pets cause Doom to explode?
On-topic: Pet or guardian damage does not proc it—only your direct damaging spells.

Thanks for the explantion.
I take it that's how Combustion helper works? It knows a mob named <whatever> has LB, but doesn't know which one specifically?
Off-topic: I have not examined this addon specifically, but if I was writing it, yes, this would be a problem that I wouldn't have an apparent solution to. Let's say you're AoEing down all the Felsworn Conjurers outside of HFC. An addon could show you the debuffs on each mob, and an addon could even let you know "hey, a felsworn conjurer has this debuff on it", but the addon could not tell you "the third mob from the left is the one you want to be focusing right now because it's the one with the debuff". You have to extrapolate (and act on) that for yourself based on the visual clues.
Searix
Posts: 233
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2015 10:07 pm

Re: Prophecy of Fear (Work in progress) [Megathread]

Unread postby Searix Fri Jul 10, 2015 10:39 pm

Is it possible in WA or by creating an addon that tracks who has the debuff, and is then clickable so that you would focus that target?
I can confirm this is probably the biggest problem i currently face using the trinket - it procs on a large group of mobs (usually from Supernova or Ice Lance cleave) and i cant find the mob that has it.

If someone can figure out a good workaround let me know (TidyPlates + WA?) and i'll update the OP
User avatar
Festen
Posts: 34
Joined: Fri Aug 08, 2014 11:19 am

Re: Prophecy of Fear (Work in progress) [Megathread]

Unread postby Festen Fri Jul 10, 2015 11:31 pm

"If(MoD procs on first 2 ABs): AB last 2 times, cooldowns (AP, berserking etc.), Arcane Missiles, PC as missiles land, target PC, Supernova (x2 if mark is still on boss), burn phase". The burn phase is on the cristal, right?
Searix
Posts: 233
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2015 10:07 pm

Re: Prophecy of Fear (Work in progress) [Megathread]

Unread postby Searix Sat Jul 11, 2015 1:02 am

"If(MoD procs on first 2 ABs): AB last 2 times, cooldowns (AP, berserking etc.), Arcane Missiles, PC as missiles land, target PC, Supernova (x2 if mark is still on boss), burn phase". The burn phase is on the cristal, right?
yes

once you target PC burn phase it until it ends
musclepharm
Posts: 7
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2015 5:19 pm

Re: Prophecy of Fear (Work in progress) [Megathread]

Unread postby musclepharm Sat Jul 11, 2015 2:14 am

hmm, what if AM procs while you start burning on the crystal, would it be worth it to quickly target switch back to boss, use AM on the boss and switch back to AB the crystal
Sectumsound
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2015 6:31 pm

Re: Prophecy of Fear (Work in progress) [Megathread]

Unread postby Sectumsound Sat Jul 11, 2015 3:42 am

Is it worth considering using PoM on our crystal while Mark of Doom is up on either the boss or the crystal, in order to get an extra explosion, instead of at the end of our crystal to get an extra AB into the crystal?
Searix
Posts: 233
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2015 10:07 pm

Re: Prophecy of Fear (Work in progress) [Megathread]

Unread postby Searix Sat Jul 11, 2015 11:38 pm

hmm, what if AM procs while you start burning on the crystal, would it be worth it to quickly target switch back to boss, use AM on the boss and switch back to AB the crystal
Yes, always AM the marked target if all of the missiles will hit. It's about 200k bonus damage if you do.
Is it worth considering using PoM on our crystal while Mark of Doom is up on either the boss or the crystal, in order to get an extra explosion, instead of at the end of our crystal to get an extra AB into the crystal?
No, use Supernova. PoMing Arcane Blast on the boss when it has mark is roughly equal to ignoring it and just Arcane Blasting the crystal (you lose ~60k on arcane blast not hitting the crystal, but gain 60k from hitting the mark), but you then lose ~60k by not fitting in that extra arcane blast at the end of PC, so that would be a dps loss

Priority when Mark and AP/PC are up:
ALWAYS Arcane Missiles any target with mark if all 5 missiles will hit. If you haven't popped cooldowns consider doing AP/zerk, Arcane Missiles, and dropping PC as Missiles land (+200k damage over ignoring mark and just hitting crystal with missiles)
ALWAYS Supernova the crystal, Supernova when mark is about to expire on boss.
Searix
Posts: 233
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2015 10:07 pm

Re: Arcane Talent Comparisons, Stat Weights, Racials, Trinke

Unread postby Searix Sun Jul 12, 2015 12:07 am

Mod Edit: Follow few posts were moved over from Arcane SimC results thread since they were off topic.

Prophecy of Fear weaving isn't currently modeled in sims, so i wouldn't put too much stock in them.
User avatar
Komma
Administrator
Posts: 1486
Joined: Wed May 28, 2014 7:37 pm

Re: Arcane Talent Comparisons, Stat Weights, Racials, Trinke

Unread postby Komma Sun Jul 12, 2015 12:28 am

Prophecy of Fear weaving isn't currently modeled in sims, so i wouldn't put too much stock in them.
That seems like a rather odd reason to question their accuracy. What exactly do you think has not been tested and isn't modelled? Why do you think it affects things to the point where they cannot be trusted?
Admin of Altered Time.

Have an issue with the website or moderation? Send me a PM!
Searix
Posts: 233
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2015 10:07 pm

Re: Arcane Talent Comparisons, Stat Weights, Racials, Trinke

Unread postby Searix Sun Jul 12, 2015 12:40 am

Prophecy of Fear weaving isn't currently modeled in sims, so i wouldn't put too much stock in them.
That seems like a rather odd reason to question their accuracy. What exactly do you think has not been tested and isn't modelled? Why do you think it affects things to the point where they cannot be trusted?
There is still the question of weaving on/off PC, or using PC as just a means to get a bunch of doom nova explosions that still needs to be investigated.
from the Arcane sims thread, Frosted hasn't had time to work on it yet
User avatar
Komma
Administrator
Posts: 1486
Joined: Wed May 28, 2014 7:37 pm

Re: Arcane Talent Comparisons, Stat Weights, Racials, Trinke

Unread postby Komma Sun Jul 12, 2015 1:38 am

My question isn't just what you think hasn't been done yet (although in fact, I've already done some experimenting with it), but also why you think it has such huge significance that current sims are invalid, and we "should not put too much stock in them".

Whenever an inaccuracy (or potential inaccuracy) is brought up, it is not only important to consider whether it is valid, but also to consider the magnitude of the effect. There were lots of players during 5.4 who claimed that "sims are invalid because it doesn't do <some trick I use>". An example of that was "sims are invalid because it doesn't time evocation with the last tick of bloodlust to reduce the cast time". For obvious reasons, that didn't matter nearly as much as the person thought it did.

A good way to think about each trick or inaccuracy is this:
1. How big is the numerical difference, each time it happens?
2. How often does this situation happen?

For Prophecy of Fear weaving with PC, let's assume for now that it's solidly established as a DPS gain compared to other tricks (which we really haven't). The numerical difference is the difference between Doom Nova triggers on the boss, and the 30% amplification of AM on PC. This is at most a 100K overall damage difference each time it occurs. How often does this happen? PC is every 1.5 minutes, and PoF procs at 0.9 RPPM. It has a decent chance of happening on the pull, and a fraction of a chance for PCs the rest of the fight. An occurrence frequency of 1.0 to 1.5 times per fight seems like a reasonable overestimate.

Therefore, we're talking about an average of at most ~150K damage done over say, a 450 second fight. That's ~333 DPS - less than a 0.5% damage difference over an entire fight. Is a <0.5% difference really enough of a reason to cast doubt on the accuracy of stat weights and other conclusions?

The same reasoning is why I believe opener discussions are often futile. Openers, by their very definition, only occur once for each fight. For an opener change to have noticeable effect, it better do literally more than a million damage. It better summon Zeus from the heavens and smite your foes with thunderbolts, if it is to make a meaningful difference in the grand scheme of numbers. And when you find something like that, you better expect it to get nerfed pretty soon. Surely everyone remember 2T17 Fire Combustion openers and how they ended?
Admin of Altered Time.

Have an issue with the website or moderation? Send me a PM!
Searix
Posts: 233
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2015 10:07 pm

Re: Arcane Talent Comparisons, Stat Weights, Racials, Trinke

Unread postby Searix Sun Jul 12, 2015 3:34 am

First: It just occurred to me the 'too much stock in them' comment could be interpreted as referring to sims in general. I was referring to Caimion's SN vs. UM post above it. I'm a big fan of the Simcraft in general didn't mean to say the Sims weren't pretty damn accurate :)

The truth is probably somewhere between where we're at. I'm calculating weaving being around 1-2k higher with SN_ROP_PC

As for how much damage it does, here's a log i linked in the PoF thread: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/Mt ... e&source=4" target="_blank

The trinket accounts for ~750k damage on the opener, without lust. This is using the 'if it doesnt proc on first 2 ABs just drop crystal' trick. With lust and better gear (i was 2pc and 704 ilvl) this really is going to be around a million damage difference.

Obviously you have a point with the midfight aspect. But i think you're slightly underestimating how strong it is midfight. Sometimes it has ~3 seconds left when cooldowns come up and all you can do is drop crystal and supernova maybe twice, but other times it procs and you have the full 10 seconds to work with, where AP/AM, drop crystal, another AM (maybe two), SNx2 (on crystal) can result in upwards of 500k mark damage. I don't know how exactly the rotation should work with tome/AB but that's why ive been waiting for the sims :)
User avatar
Komma
Administrator
Posts: 1486
Joined: Wed May 28, 2014 7:37 pm

Re: Arcane Talent Comparisons, Stat Weights, Racials, Trinke

Unread postby Komma Sun Jul 12, 2015 4:12 am

The trinket accounts for ~750k damage on the opener, without lust. This is using the 'if it doesnt proc on first 2 ABs just drop crystal' trick. With lust and better gear (i was 2pc and 704 ilvl) this really is going to be around a million damage difference.
You're looking at "how much" Doom Nova did, not "how much more". What if you chose to simply delay PC and utilize Doom Nova? The current sim dumps all AMs into Doom Nova when it procs. How much more would an early PC strategy do? What's the cost? How often does it end up actually with Doom Nova on PC? What happens if it procs on the boss with the second AB, right as you drop PC? Taking into account all cases, the average damage gained is not as easily decipherable, and I don't think it'll come anywhere near a million.

That said, it is indeed another possible option for how to utilize Doom Nova. I think the best option right now is to let people play with it, do some spreadsheet and napkin math analysis, and then take the most promising candidates for a spin with robomage to see which ones work best.
Admin of Altered Time.

Have an issue with the website or moderation? Send me a PM!
Searix
Posts: 233
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2015 10:07 pm

Re: Arcane Talent Comparisons, Stat Weights, Racials, Trinke

Unread postby Searix Sun Jul 12, 2015 6:23 am

Really wish you'd come by the PoF megathread, i did a lot of math there that needs checking :)
The trinket accounts for ~750k damage on the opener, without lust. This is using the 'if it doesnt proc on first 2 ABs just drop crystal' trick. With lust and better gear (i was 2pc and 704 ilvl) this really is going to be around a million damage difference.
You're looking at "how much" Doom Nova did, not "how much more".
The 750k figure is obviously not counting the negatives like you noted. Making 3rd and 4th AB start on crystal is a dps loss (no idea how much, around 100k?) We're AMing instead of ABing on crystal, which is more mana for mana adept but a dps loss if we're capped, and a dps loss if we're not using Tome. We end up with a whole bunch of 'we need to sim it', and there's unfortunately a lot of variables to test.
What if you chose to simply delay PC and utilize Doom Nova? The current sim dumps all AMs into Doom Nova when it procs.
Napkin math i've been using is around ~25k (after multi/crit factored in) doom novas on boss alone, 60k (25k + 25k*1.3= 57.5k or ~60k) if we hit crystal with it. Not using Arcane Power and not using crystal though means it should hit around ~20k, in addition to pushing back AP/PC timers (which i have no earthly idea how much of a dps loss that is)
How much more would an early PC strategy do? What's the cost? How often does it end up actually with Doom Nova on PC?
Napkin math i did earlier is it's around ~+200k if you AP/AM and drop crystal as it lands if boss has mark. As to consistency i'm yet to (sample size ~10 pulls) fail to get a good amount of mark time when crystal (almost always the full 10 seconds) when doing the 'it doesn't proc on first 2 AB' strategy. I definitely wish i had more people testing this and backing me up though
What happens if it procs on the boss with the second AB, right as you drop PC?
There's talk of doing POM Arcane Blast for this very reason on AB 2. Again something to test. This has happened though and i'm not sure what to do about it (maybe cast AB 3?)
Taking into account all cases, the average damage gained is not as easily decipherable, and I don't think it'll come anywhere near a million. That said, it is indeed another possible option for how to utilize Doom Nova. I think the best option right now is to let people play with it, do some spreadsheet and napkin math analysis, and then take the most promising candidates for a spin with robomage to see which ones work best.
By all means i'm openly encouraging anyone with the trinket or simcraft knowledge to help test. I have the PoF thread open in General Discussion where anyone with questions/logs can post to help out. The 'average' i'm expecting is ~500k from opener (~50% of the time do ABx2 strat and gain +750k damage, ~50% time procs on boss get +250k = 500k on average super rough napkin math), and ~200k*.15*5= ~150k chances on a 450 second fight from midfight (it's closer to ~15% of the time there's some mark time left when AP/crystal are up) = ~650k bonus damage per fight with PoF optimization, which on a 450 second fight is ~1300 dps, higher with adds though.
Camjee
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Jun 22, 2015 3:25 pm

Re: Prophecy of Fear (Work in progress) [Megathread]

Unread postby Camjee Tue Jul 14, 2015 4:26 am

Anyone else getting prophecy procc on boss after hitting PC? I just looked at the video of our M Iron Reaver kill and i used 2 AB's on boss with no procc, so put up a PC and double supernova'd it, saw my MoD WA come up so started dumping missiles into PC. Turns out looking back at the video, mark ended up on boss :(
User avatar
Stressball
Posts: 65
Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2014 9:25 pm
Location: Rochester, NY

Re: Prophecy of Fear (Work in progress) [Megathread]

Unread postby Stressball Tue Jul 14, 2015 5:13 am

Yes, I believe PC damage on the boss can proc it, and I know SN can. I'd recommend making two separate WAs - one for your current target, one for when it's on something else.
BynoPyny
Posts: 9
Joined: Thu Dec 25, 2014 9:33 pm

Re: Prophecy of Fear (Work in progress) [Megathread]

Unread postby BynoPyny Tue Jul 14, 2015 1:30 pm

Anyone else getting prophecy procc on boss after hitting PC? I just looked at the video of our M Iron Reaver kill and i used 2 AB's on boss with no procc, so put up a PC and double supernova'd it, saw my MoD WA come up so started dumping missiles into PC. Turns out looking back at the video, mark ended up on boss :(
Yes, I believe PC damage on the boss can proc it, and I know SN can. I'd recommend making two separate WAs - one for your current target, one for when it's on something else.
There's a couple of WA's in this thread http://altered-time.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=1672" target="_blank that try to help with mistargeting during PoF proc
Camjee
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Jun 22, 2015 3:25 pm

Re: Prophecy of Fear (Work in progress) [Megathread]

Unread postby Camjee Tue Jul 14, 2015 11:34 pm

Anyone else getting prophecy procc on boss after hitting PC? I just looked at the video of our M Iron Reaver kill and i used 2 AB's on boss with no procc, so put up a PC and double supernova'd it, saw my MoD WA come up so started dumping missiles into PC. Turns out looking back at the video, mark ended up on boss :(
Yes, I believe PC damage on the boss can proc it, and I know SN can. I'd recommend making two separate WAs - one for your current target, one for when it's on something else.
There's a couple of WA's in this thread http://altered-time.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=1672" target="_blank that try to help with mistargeting during PoF proc
Thanks!

Return to “General Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests