Sept 23 Hotfix Discussion Thread

[Komma]

We don't like having 15 different threads created in different forums, so let's keep it all in one place.

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/news/ ... ptember-23" target="_blank

Arcane
Mastery effects increased by 20%.
Arcane Missiles damage increased by 9%.
Arcane Blast damage increased by 10%.

Frost
Frostbolt damage increased by 8%.
Ice Lance damage increased by 13%.
Flurry damage increased by 38%.
Blizzard damage increased by 36%, and mana cost reduced by 50%.
Splitting Ice (Talent) now causes 80% of normal damage (up from 50%).
Ice Nova (Talent) damage increased by 13%.
Ray of Frost (Talent) damage increased by 28%.
Glacial Spike (Talent) damage increased by 15%.

[gerbodis]

I went in and did some math.

So what you can do is multiply your current Mana Regen % and Arcane Charge % by 1.2

So I stacking as much mastery as I can with what's in my bags ATM and factoring in Tuesday changes I have

47% Mastery and 4% vers =208,140 avg AB hit

stacking vers I'd have

31% Mastery and 12% vers = 184,320 avg AB hit

So my vers set gives me less damage and 18% less mana pool and mana regen.
Meaning Mastery is stronger.

[Komma]

So what you can do is multiply your current Mana Regen % and Arcane Charge % by 1.2

Those don't sound right.

First one sounds wrong, because a 20% buff to mastery effect is not a 20% buff to overall mana regen. It is a 1.2x multiplier to the increment. Multiplying 40% mastery by 1.2x would give 48% mastery, which is an 8% base mana pool gain, or a 5.714% overall mana pool gain. Nothing close to your 18% figure.

Second sounds wrong because Arcane Charges have a base 60% effect.

Even if you're looking only at the mastery portion, we can't be sure whether this is just the rating conversion or also affects the base mastery. I think it probably does, so 1.2x the effect gain might be alright.

[Ghazwaagh]

It's nice to see them addressing the issue with Arcane. Mastery was such garbage and it made no sense to me for arcane mages to be stacking vers and crit. The spec appears to have been designed with mastery for damage/sustainability in mind, so to make it as weak as it is seemed like terrible design.

The frost changes are interesting too. I prefer to play fire but I'll be extremely annoyed if this pushes frost way past fire in damage to a point where I have to change.

[Perfect72]

I'm both happy and sad. Happy we got looked at. Sad because I like the current Thermal Void/Bone Chilling spec/rotation. It seems they are pushing us more to standing still with Ray of Frost and Glacial Spike. Just did Emerald Nightmare tonight, and its namesake is pretty apt for a ranged. A nightmare of movement.

I wish they would look into the mastery for frost. The way it sits I am at 43% haste, 35% mastery, and 18% crit. This is most definitely not where I want to be but it seems like the gear is Crit/Vers and Haste/Mastery for the most part, barring drops from Cenarius. I can't seem to raise my crit with my haste, but my mastery has been high all expansion. It needs to be reworked somehow.

Back on topic. The TV/BC spec allows for decent movement with Ice Lance spamming. It's not great, but it is something. Now I don't know what the spec will change into with a buff to Ray of Frost and Glacial Spike, and Ice Nova and also with the Ice Lance buff. It honestly seems all so weird to me. I mean, the buff to Ice Lance means TV/BC gets stronger, but is the 28% on Ray and 18% on Spike worth it to switch, along with the Frostbolt buff?

It's a weird buff that I guess gives us a bit more options, which is good. But both specs playstyles differ drastically. One being good for movement, and the other keeping us planted in place. I think reducing the cast time on Ebonbolt/Glacial Spike and making Ray of Frost usable while moving with Ice Floes would be best for the latter spec to bring it more in line with TV/BC.

I guess we will see come Tuesday, but it honestly just seems weird to me.

The frost changes are interesting too. I prefer to play fire but I'll be extremely annoyed if this pushes frost way past fire in damage to a point where I have to change.

Welcome to how Frost mages have felt so far this expansion? I don't know what else to say. I'd prefer all 3 specs to be in the top 12 (along with the other pure classes, Rogue/Warlock/Hunter) but I don't think we will ever see it this way. Either way, I'll be happy if it pushes past or up to fire so I don't have to even consider fire's boring rotation.

[Ghazwaagh]

The frost changes are interesting too. I prefer to play fire but I'll be extremely annoyed if this pushes frost way past fire in damage to a point where I have to change.

Welcome to how Frost mages have felt so far this expansion? I don't know what else to say. I'd prefer all 3 specs to be in the top 12 (along with the other pure classes, Rogue/Warlock/Hunter) but I don't think we will ever see it this way. Either way, I'll be happy if it pushes past or up to fire so I don't have to even consider fire's boring rotation.

As far as I can remember, Frost has been pretty consistent in Wow's history. Fire on the other hand has been extremely gear dependent to the point where playing it early on was almost a waste of time due to the crit requirements. This is the first expansion that I can remember where Fire is good coming out of the gate without the incredibly high gear requirement. I'm happy that I can finally play the spec I've been wanting to play for years now without worrying about insane amounts of RNG and huge gaps in dps.

It sucks that frost got the shaft early in this expansion, but things will change. I'm just tired of being pidgeon holded into a spec I don't like because they can't balance them properly, either over buffing or over nerfing into uselessness. These kinds of buffs are usually the precursor to that. They did something similar to Arcane during Highmaul. Frost was the top, arcane was lagging behind, then suddenly buffs that made arcane pretty much the standard for most of the expansion thereafter.

I will also be happy if this all works out and makes Frost/arcane on par with fire, but I'm always skeptical. I would rather have other specs as options, rather than a hard requirement.

[gerbodis]

So what you can do is multiply your current Mana Regen % and Arcane Charge % by 1.2

Those don't sound right.

First one sounds wrong, because a 20% buff to mastery effect is not a 20% buff to overall mana regen. It is a 1.2x multiplier to the increment. Multiplying 40% mastery by 1.2x would give 48% mastery, which is an 8% base mana pool gain, or a 5.714% overall mana pool gain. Nothing close to your 18% figure.

Second sounds wrong because Arcane Charges have a base 60% effect.

Even if you're looking only at the mastery portion, we can't be sure whether this is just the rating conversion or also affects the base mastery. I think it probably does, so 1.2x the effect gain might be alright.

[Perfect72]

The frost changes are interesting too. I prefer to play fire but I'll be extremely annoyed if this pushes frost way past fire in damage to a point where I have to change.

Welcome to how Frost mages have felt so far this expansion? I don't know what else to say. I'd prefer all 3 specs to be in the top 12 (along with the other pure classes, Rogue/Warlock/Hunter) but I don't think we will ever see it this way. Either way, I'll be happy if it pushes past or up to fire so I don't have to even consider fire's boring rotation.

As far as I can remember, Frost has been pretty consistent in Wow's history. Fire on the other hand has been extremely gear dependent to the point where playing it early on was almost a waste of time due to the crit requirements. This is the first expansion that I can remember where Fire is good coming out of the gate without the incredibly high gear requirement. I'm happy that I can finally play the spec I've been wanting to play for years now without worrying about insane amounts of RNG and huge gaps in dps.

It sucks that frost got the shaft early in this expansion, but things will change. I'm just tired of being pidgeon holded into a spec I don't like because they can't balance them properly, either over buffing or over nerfing into uselessness. These kinds of buffs are usually the precursor to that. They did something similar to Arcane during Highmaul. Frost was the top, arcane was lagging behind, then suddenly buffs that made arcane pretty much the standard for most of the expansion thereafter.

I will also be happy if this all works out and makes Frost/arcane on par with fire, but I'm always skeptical. I would rather have other specs as options, rather than a hard requirement.

I agree with you. I loved fire during Ulduar back in the fire with the set piece (as it was back then, Hot Streak not consuming itself on Pyroblasts was a blast.) But I absolutely hate what they've done to fire in Legion. I've always been a big Frost/Fire guy (haven't touched Arcane since Wrath pre-patch one time, and don't really bother with it). But fire lost its spark with me with the playstyle now.

If all three mage specs can be within 5-10% of each other, then I'll be happy either way. As long as that doesn't mean we fall out of the top 12 for DPS for ALL specs. That includes other classes getting buffs. I'm looking at warlocks here, who I regularly saw pulling 300k+ in Mythics prior to raid launching. I don't know what spec they were, but I'm not sure where all the QQ came from. Maybe they were in the same boat as us? Or maybe people don't know how to play warlocks, but I was shocked to see their buffs being so extreme.

[Ghazwaagh]

I'm looking at warlocks here, who I regularly saw pulling 300k+ in Mythics prior to raid launching. I don't know what spec they were, but I'm not sure where all the QQ came from. Maybe they were in the same boat as us? Or maybe people don't know how to play warlocks, but I was shocked to see their buffs being so extreme.

I'm not sure what they did to warlocks. This is the first time warlocks have not been seriously OP like they've been in the past. I think blizz focused way too hard on balancing around artifacts and ended up messing a whole lot of things up, warlocks, arcane mages, rogue specs that aren't outlaw etc.

Personally, I think artifacts were a bad idea in addition to the random world drop legendaries. There's way too much to balance around in an attempt to make people feel unique that they just mucked a whole bunch of stuff up.

[Perfect72]

So I did the math factoring in all the changes using the TV/BC build using a "Patchwerk" fight. No movement. Just pure DPS. 5 and a half minutes.

These changes only add only 20k DPS total and that is being generous with the numbers.

This is including having Chilled to the Core.

So I instead did another test with Ray of Frost instead of Bone Chilling. Same parameters. 4 and a half minute fight. And still only a 20-23k DPS increase.

I just don't see it being enough. Maybe if there is some other spec variation with the Ray of Frost/Glacial Spike buff. But as it is now it's just not enough.

Frost Mages are doing about 130k less DPS than fire in optimal conditions. So now we will only do 110k less! Whoopie.

Sorry to say, it is simply just not enough. Not the way it currently stands. So much for being excited for next week.

[canofbutter]

So I did the math factoring in all the changes using the TV/BC build using a "Patchwerk" fight. No movement. Just pure DPS. 5 and a half minutes.

These changes only add only 20k DPS total and that is being generous with the numbers.

This is including having Chilled to the Core.

So I instead did another test with Ray of Frost instead of Bone Chilling. Same parameters. 4 and a half minute fight. And still only a 20-23k DPS increase.

I just don't see it being enough. Maybe if there is some other spec variation with the Ray of Frost/Glacial Spike buff. But as it is now it's just not enough.

Frost Mages are doing about 130k less DPS than fire in optimal conditions. So now we will only do 110k less! Whoopie.

Sorry to say, it is simply just not enough. Not the way it currently stands. So much for being excited for next week.

I agree that it's still not enough, however the current Simcraft APL needs tweaking to take better advantage of the hotfixes. Below is my own tweaking (based on the current profile and a work in progress):

Code: Select all

actions.precombat=flask,type=flask_of_the_whispered_pact actions.precombat+=/food,type=azshari_salad actions.precombat+=/augmentation,type=defiled actions.precombat+=/water_elemental actions.precombat+=/snapshot_stats actions.precombat+=/mirror_image actions.precombat+=/potion,name=deadly_grace actions.precombat+=/frostbolt actions=counterspell,if=target.debuff.casting.react actions+=/ice_lance,if=buff.fingers_of_frost.react=0&prev_gcd.flurry actions+=/time_warp,if=target.health.pct<25|time=0 actions+=/shard_of_the_exodar_warp,if=buff.bloodlust.down&time>5 actions+=/call_action_list,name=cooldowns actions+=/ice_nova,if=debuff.winters_chill.up actions+=/frostbolt,if=prev_off_gcd.water_jet actions+=/water_jet,if=prev_gcd.frostbolt&buff.fingers_of_frost.stack<(2+artifact.icy_hand.enabled)&buff.brain_freeze.react=0 actions+=/ray_of_frost,if=buff.icy_veins.up|(cooldown.icy_veins.remains>action.ray_of_frost.cooldown&buff.rune_of_power.down)|buff.rune_of_power.up actions+=/flurry,if=buff.brain_freeze.react&((buff.fingers_of_frost.react=0&prev_gcd.frostbolt)|buff.brain_freeze.remains<1.5) actions+=/glacial_spike actions+=/frozen_touch,if=buff.fingers_of_frost.stack<=(0+artifact.icy_hand.enabled) actions+=/frost_bomb,if=debuff.frost_bomb.remains<action.ice_lance.travel_time&(buff.fingers_of_frost.react>0|buff.brain_freeze.up) actions+=/ice_lance,if=buff.fingers_of_frost.react>0&cooldown.icy_veins.remains>10|buff.fingers_of_frost.react>2|buff.icy_veins.up&talent.thermal_void.enabled&buff.fingers_of_frost.react>0 actions+=/ice_nova actions+=/comet_storm actions+=/ebonbolt,if=buff.fingers_of_frost.stack<=(0+artifact.icy_hand.enabled) actions+=/frozen_orb actions+=/blizzard actions+=/frostbolt actions.cooldowns=rune_of_power,if=cooldown.icy_veins.remains<cast_time|charges_fractional>1.9&cooldown.icy_veins.remains>10|talent.ray_of_frost.enabled&cooldown.ray_of_frost.remains<cast_time|buff.icy_veins.up|target.time_to_die.remains+5<charges_fractional*10 actions.cooldowns+=/icy_veins,if=buff.icy_veins.down actions.cooldowns+=/mirror_image actions.cooldowns+=/blood_fury actions.cooldowns+=/berserking actions.cooldowns+=/arcane_torrent actions.cooldowns+=/potion,name=deadly_grace

[Effia]

Has anyone actually done definitive testing on what the stat priority will be for Arcane with these changes? Seen a lot of wishy washy statements but nothing concrete and I haven't a clue how you'd go about determining the stat weights.

[gerbodis]

Has anyone actually done definitive testing on what the stat priority will be for Arcane with these changes? Seen a lot of wishy washy statements but nothing concrete and I haven't a clue how you'd go about determining the stat weights.

All I can say is trust me, mastery > vers or Mastery=Vers

[Monark]

Does anyone have a SimC after this build ?!

[canofbutter]

Does anyone have a SimC after this build ?!

The most recent nightly build (45d38c4) has the mage hotfixes, including the arcane mastery buff.

[Mendax]

Would be fun i can play arcane again, i don't like the way it is now.
Play fire or stay behind in dps.
Always liked to play arcane and it should be equal with fire in raids.
And love to see a healthy battle with the 3 specs tbh.
Lets see what next reset brings us.

[Texhex]

Does anyone have a SimC after this build ?!

The most recent nightly build (45d38c4) has the mage hotfixes, including the arcane mastery buff.

yes but it still uses the non mastery high crit/versatility gear
my guess ius that now mastery is slightly better than those two and with adapted gear arcane mnight be even better than current sims show

[Camjee]

I swear to god if they buff arcane so hard that hard I'm forced to play it I'll quit the game.

Arcane already top the ranks at 90> percentile, if anything by looking at logs like https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/BQ ... 4false%240 this AM should be nerfed not buffed?

[Forminasage]

A cursory glance at that set of logs reveals the real problem - that seemingly the only viable build for Arcane right now is the NT-Q spam build, which is just no good on some fights while being ridiculous on others. There's no consistency, and I'm fairly sure it's going to get nerfed (probably by stopping NT from proccing AM or more likely by increasing NT's mana cost)

[Komma]

Why are people referring to the top Arcane percentiles right now? The NT-Quickening abuse is still rampant. Nobody is expecting that to stay.

I swear to god if they buff arcane so hard that hard I'm forced to play it I'll quit the game.

These comments are useless and don't belong in this forum.

Seems like they changed the base mastery point to % conversion from 1:1% to 1:1.2%. That said, it's still wrong to multiple things to your mana regen directly.