PTR Arcane Talent Combinations

Guides and discussions of all things specific to the Mana Adepts of Azeroth.
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Causese
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Re: PTR Arcane Talent Combinations

Unread postby Causese Thu Dec 22, 2016 5:22 pm


1) How did the changes to AM/AB power (specifically through talents like Amp) effect the rotation?

3) With enough regen legendary items (bracers/helm) would it ever be possible to revive an abarrless rotation that isn't a large ST DPS loss vs. a standard B/C cycling, and what does this mean for how flexible Arcane is in 715 when thinking about how Abarr gives "free" cleave/AoE.
1)
- you probably want to bank few arcane missiles to have them after evocation (with 4pc)
if ur at 35% for example and have 0 am proccs, you might just 3x ab -> evo

- with legendary head and while 1 evo charge is recharging, you probably don't want to evo with 3AM proccs since u AB right after evo to get mana regen rolling, which might procc AM and lead to munching.

- when pairing MoA+RoP w/o AP you probably want to have 2 AM just as MoA comes off cooldown. MoA itself might procc the 3rd AM. Under RoP 3x AM -> AB -> AM appears to make best use of it


3)
4pc is currently bugged on ptr, arcane missiles sometimes don't reduce evocation's cd (happens a lot)
still managed to do a barrageless rotation (well, with occasional barrage -> charged up) for 10 minutes (stopped after)

curious if it's just a bug or if they're planning to change 4pc to %chance to procc evo reduction

abarrless might even be possible with legendary legs if u take charged up

assuming by "abarrless" you mean maintaining 100% uptime on 4AC (except when you abarr -> CU which is kinda still 100%)
Yugi Mutou
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Re: PTR Arcane Talent Combinations

Unread postby Yugi Mutou Fri Dec 23, 2016 4:02 am

TF=what we played in 100 level.But we lose the 100 talent. :roll:
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TheHeretic91
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Re: PTR Arcane Talent Combinations

Unread postby TheHeretic91 Fri Dec 23, 2016 2:44 pm

Really bummed that Erosion is becoming the best talent in its tier. I don't know why they would make a change to NT to reward you for choosing a passive. That is one tuning point I hope still changes in the PTR but I doubt it will. From what I'm seeing and Frosted's charts above it looks like NT might as well not be in the game. Who would choose a talent that requires management that lowers your dps in ever circumstance?
Yep. That's how it goes, though. If you have two talents and they do equal DPS but one requires less micro-managing and thus is less prone to error, you probably wanna take that one over the other.
Densor
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Re: PTR Arcane Talent Combinations

Unread postby Densor Fri Dec 30, 2016 8:10 am

Couple things I've been looking in to:

1) As Barrage becomes a frequent spell in the standard ST DPS rotation, I was wondering if it was a DPS increase to case an Arcane Explosion at 0 charges, rather than an AB. Both do complete shit for damage with 0 charges, but AE gets done 50% faster. However, AE also has a reduced chance to proc AM's.

First, I needed to take proc munching into account. Using Barrage, there is a possibility of munching AM procs with your normal rotation, since you cast 5 spells (Barrage, 4xAB for example) before you get back to 4 charges and optimal time to cast AM. By casting 5 spells, you have a chance to proc AM up to 5 times, but only 3 would stick around. As a result, the average number of AM procs you finish those 5 spells with is less than the sum of their proc chances. For the 4xAB rotation, at 18% AM proc rate, you lose about 4% of an AM proc by taking munching into account, or you'll munch one AM every 25 rotations, on average. At 26% proc rate, you lose 15% of an AM, which is 1 AM munch per 6.66 rotations. Using the AE, 3xAB rotation, at 18% proc rate, you lose 2.5% of an AM, and at 26% proc rate, you lose 10% of an AM.

Now with more accurate proc rates, I looked at the number of AM's you lose going from the 4xAB rotation to the AE, 3xAB rotation. With an 18% chance to proc AM, using AE instead of AB at 0 charges results in losing about 1 AM proc every 10 rotations. At 26% AM proc chance, you lose 1 AM proc every 6.66 rotations.

So, finally with those numbers, I was able to compare the lost DPS from fewer AM's to the DPS gained by a faster 0 charge spell. The end result was that using AE was a slight DPS increase; at the numbers I ran, it increased DPS by less than 0.5%. However, I didn't take TotM into account, but I don't know how it would affect the numbers.

On the one hand, if TotM procs on the 0 charge AB, it will definitely increase the DPS of the 4xAB rotation to higher than the AE, 3xAB rotation. On the other hand, it has seemed to me that TotM can't refresh itself, so if it procs on the 0 charge AB, it can't proc again until it expires. As a result, by proccing on the 0 charge AB, you are preventing it from proccing on the 1, 2, and 3 charge AB's, which have a significantly higher return on the proc.

2) If you take Overpowered, I wondered if it was a good idea to sync MoA with AP. I'm assuming you always cast MoA with RoP, so I'm going to ignore it for this math. Using OP, if you cast MoA on cooldown, you get a 1.7x MoA when it lines up with AP, and 2 more MoA casts, for a total of 3.7 effective MoA's. If you delay MoA to AP, you get 2 MoA casts at 1.7x power, for a total of 3.4 effective MoA's. The question now is whether 30% of an MoA is worth the cast time it costs.

So, the cast time of MoA is 2 seconds, and the damage done is 720% of SP plus 15% of mana. 30% of that is 216% of SP plus 4.5% of mana, or 108% of SP and 2.25% of mana per second. Our lowest DPS rotation (4xAB, Barrage) does 272% of SP per second on average. Thus, if 2.25% of mana is greater than 164% of SP, we should use MoA on cooldown, otherwise we should use it only during AP. At 1.5 million mana (24% mastery and AF), 2.25% would be 33750. Thus, for that to work, our SP would need to be less than 21k.

Conclusion: it may be a slight DPS increase to delay MoA for AP if you take Overpowered. On the other hand, my analysis doesn't address the difference in mana usage. If you are trying to do a Barrage-less rotation, you may be planning to cast MoA as a non-mana using spell to help make your mana last to the next Evocation. There's also an issue of the first tick of MoA not being affected by AP (and RoP), but don't think that would change the results. I'm also using the average rotation DPS, which may not yield accurate results.

3) But what about without Overpowered? If that is the case, during AP, our MoA is worth 1.3x, plus 2 more if casting on cooldown for 3.3x MoA's. By using with AP, we cast two MoA's at 1.3x power for 2.6x MoA's. As a result, we lose 70% of an MoA.

70% of an MoA translates to 504% of SP and 10.5% of mana over 2 seconds, or 252% of AP and 5.25% of mana per second. Without taking into account the talent we chose other than OP, the rotation does 272% of SP per second. To make this work, 20% of SP would need to be greater than 5.25% of our mana, which is probably not going to happen. Even taking the other talents into account and the other factors I am skipping, it is probably impossible to come out on top in this situation.

Conclusion: without OP, cast MoA on cooldown as expected.
Trylldom
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Re: PTR Arcane Talent Combinations

Unread postby Trylldom Fri Dec 30, 2016 9:54 am

The end result was that using AE was a slight DPS increase; at the numbers I ran, it increased DPS by less than 0.5%. However, I didn't take TotM into account, but I don't know how it would affect the numbers.
Although not really comparable to fire's Flamestrike build, I do however smile a bit reading that even arcane's AOE ability can be used as a single target dmg increase :)

Next up, Blizzard spam build for Frost?

Anyway, great work! Lot of stuff to read into.
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a0kalittlema0n
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Re: PTR Arcane Talent Combinations

Unread postby a0kalittlema0n Sun Jan 01, 2017 8:50 pm

Great info, and thanks for it. I had an interesting question earlier. i haven't tested MI damage, but what about delaying AP to line up with Sinew + MI + OP + MoA (+ possibly Legendary Trinket to get a use outside as well) at the 2 minute mark? Would this be worth it on fights less than 6 minutes long? Was an interesting question that you seem motivated enough to delve into.
Ddmagebags
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Re: PTR Arcane Talent Combinations

Unread postby Ddmagebags Sun Jan 08, 2017 3:02 am

I think I am going to gravitate towards Build 5 in which you referenced.... I do have a question...

which talents would you change for pushing M+ keys? I spend most of my time doing those and I like to find a good balance of AOE and single target.
m3nsky
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Re: PTR Arcane Talent Combinations

Unread postby m3nsky Mon Jan 09, 2017 5:58 pm

I think I am going to gravitate towards Build 5 in which you referenced.... I do have a question...

which talents would you change for pushing M+ keys? I spend most of my time doing those and I like to find a good balance of AOE and single target.
I will be running the following for M+:

Arcane Familiar (hoped to get rid of him but the other 2 choices don't benefit as much for M+)
Shimmer
RoP
Resonance
Chrono Shift
Erosion (You don't AB much apart from Bosses where it doesn't matter and NT doesn't do enough for shortlived packs)
Arcane Orb

Since it's usually about AOE Trash packs you are heavily using AE and ABarr, AOrb provides additional boost of charges for those packs. Only drawback is that the higher M+ you go the more you want silences/stuns/interrupts where SuperNova was helpful but it noway outperforms resonance.

Just my 2 cents, for raids obviously you change pretty much everything but that wasn't your question :)
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Kythos
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Re: PTR Arcane Talent Combinations

Unread postby Kythos Mon Jan 09, 2017 9:29 pm

Arcane Familiar has been updated as a flat 60 minute buff with visual... so it will be 100% less of a pain. so thats nice...

I feel raid talents will fluxuate on bosses now, especially in NH.

Excited for tomorrow and the 20+ hours this week on the hall on a target dummy.
pewpewpewpewpew!
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x1xruex1x
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Re: PTR Arcane Talent Combinations

Unread postby x1xruex1x Mon Jan 09, 2017 9:57 pm

Arcane Familiar has been updated as a flat 60 minute buff with visual... so it will be 100% less of a pain. so thats nice...

I feel raid talents will fluxuate on bosses now, especially in NH.

Excited for tomorrow and the 20+ hours this week on the hall on a target dummy.
Can't agree with you more on this Kythos!

Suiting up for hard testing this week!
:geek: :geek: :geek:
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