Precast ABarrage instead of AB?

[gameorg]

Eh? What trinkets did you make.

Nothing special i made manual trinkets that have the same stats as oregorger/darmac trinket and let them proc at the start and gave them 10 sec duration/cooldown. I stopped the sim at 20 sec and compared numbers. The numbers were pretty close to my logs aswell, but since you cant do a full fight simulation iam not going to post them, but it provides a raw indication on how significant 2 extra trinkets might be.

[Mevlin]

I dont think this is silly; in fact, I think whoever suggested the Fruit Basket is a clever man. Whether it is an exploit or not is irrelevant since other classes have been doing it. And I don't think the dps gain is inconsequential either considering there is barely any risks involved (aside from the 30yrd range disadvantage which can be trouble-some on say Blackhand). But then again, that's just my opinion

I've been doing this this week and extremely happy with the results.

[bluebookmark]

Collections
Toy Box
Fruit Basket should no longer incorrectly have a chance to trigger trinket effects.

Looks like this has been hotfixed, do we have any alternatives? Maybe a rocket or something? If not, was it better to use Arcane Barrage for the back to back trinket proc?

[lve2raft]

ok - well the fruit basket thing got nerfed - how do we do it now? it provided noticeable dps increase.

[Komma]

I think it's safe to assume that any other sort of toy would also get nerfed swiftly, since this is their way of saying they don't like it.

[Carwey]

That hotfix is really weird since it only fixes a workaround to the actual abuse of proccing trinkets prepull. Trinkets should still have their double procs as long as you enter combat before your raid with any sort of projectile based spell. AFAIK the fruit basket cast itself doesn't proc the trinkets but rather the combat it puts you into does.

[Killberry]

ok - well the fruit basket thing got nerfed - how do we do it now? it provided noticeable dps increase.

Why do you ask how to do it without fruit basket if the whole original topic is based on precasting Arcane Barrage to proc trinkets? :p

[kasthor]

Collections
Toy Box
Fruit Basket should no longer incorrectly have a chance to trigger trinket effects.

I really don't understand this. If they "fix" this, they should also fix the prepull trinket proc trick because now classes with no projectile spells (I'm not 100% sure that there are ^^) are at a disadvantage.

[Killberry]

You could say the same about class unbalance. Arcane is already insanely strong spec on single target and I don't think we're at some kind of disadvantage because of that.

[kasthor]

I'm not saying that arcane mages are disavdvantaged by this, we are still able to perform the prepull trinket trick. But classes without travel time spells can't do it anymore because of the fruit basket fix (pala or monk maybe ? I don't play a lot of classes ^^). That is what bothers me, if they want to get rid of the prepull trinket trick, they should fix it but in the meantime the fruit basket was a way to put all the classes equals (even if very few people knew about it I guess)

[Killberry]

It didn't really put all the classes equal. Because, you know, someone can have those 2 trinket procs on the pull and 1 one more during a fight, while other can have 1 trinket on the pull and 5 more during the fight.

[gameorg]

It didn't really put all the classes equal. Because, you know, someone can have those 2 trinket procs on the pull and 1 one more during a fight, while other can have 1 trinket on the pull and 5 more during the fight.

RPPM counters that pretty good. The overall Trinket Proc Rate is pretty balanced on our raidlogs. Preprocs are pretty random though, since it's only a one chance thing.

That hotfix is really weird since it only fixes a workaround to the actual abuse of proccing trinkets prepull. Trinkets should still have their double procs as long as you enter combat before your raid with any sort of projectile based spell. AFAIK the fruit basket cast itself doesn't proc the trinkets but rather the combat it puts you into does.

There is no official statement that this is an abuse and now its obvious that blizzard certainly is aware of the mechanic. @Killberry, taking latest sims, fire would probably pull ahead single target with double trinket preproc. 2 Extra Procs of trinket are significant dps - especially at the start of a fight lining up wth all CDS and other procs.

If nothing else works, i will use Abarr. As mentioned earlier in this thread, If both trinkets proc you can expect a dps gain around 1500-1800 DPS, without procs, you will lose around 300 DPS. Have to check how likely it is to get the procs, if its still worth it.

[Frostfeierqt]

How long is the travel time of the Arcane Barrage missle @ max range? Can't test it myself atm since I'm still at work

[Kasc]

If you're playing fire 'optimally' so that the pull happens sometime during the flight of your first spell, you've been doing this since you got these trinkets. I think changing your pre-pull spell from AB to ABar can hardly be considered an exploit.

@Frosted - Why are you being hostile?

If you don't think this an admirable thing to do then don't do it and don't get involved with it; not sure why you're being openly hostile towards people asking about simming this.

[Killberry]

RPPM counters that pretty good. The overall Trinket Proc Rate is pretty balanced on our raidlogs. Preprocs are pretty random though, since it's only a one chance thing.

No, not really. You can still be amazingly lucky and get 5 trinket procs in a row (my personal record on luckiness) or you can be extremly unlucky and get trinket procs every 120 seconds.
Not sure what you meant behind preprocs. Your trinkets will always proc right on the pull if that's what you meant.


Regarding to fire pulling ahead of arcane on single target with double trinket procs on the pull is highly unlikely. Having amazing 2nd or 3rd Combustion is far greater DPS increase than double tinket procs on the pull.

Also the sims you mentioned, DPS increase won't be the same in 660 gear and in 690.

[Atraac]

How long is the travel time of the Arcane Barrage missle @ max range? Can't test it myself atm since I'm still at work

It's around 1,8 sec as I tried it on the dummy(40yds).

[gameorg]

No, not really. You can still be amazingly lucky and get 5 trinket procs in a row (my personal record on luckiness) or you can be extremly unlucky and get trinket procs every 120 seconds.
Not sure what you meant behind preprocs. Your trinkets will always proc right on the pull if that's what you meant.

The trinket procs are ofc balanced. The Procrate is pretty balanced if you increase the duration/number of attempts of a fight. You make an argument based on a sample size of 1. RPPM is a mechanic, that trys to normalize randomness but wont entirely negate it.

Trinkets are not guaranteed to proc on the first cast. The time since last proc is set to 120 on pull, which just makes them very likely to proc, thats because the RPPM is set to 0.92, a value high enough that activates additional proc chance (RPPM mechanic).

That beeing said: You can actually manipulate the Pre-Proc Chance according to the Blue-Post

Calculate the proc frequency as normal. Based on that, you can figure out the expected average proc interval. We also now keep track of time since the last successful proc (this is different from the time since last chance to proc), capped at 1000 sec. Multiply the proc chance by MAX(1, 1+((TimeSinceLastSuccessfulProc/AverageProcInterval)-1.5)*3). For example, if a proc has an average proc interval of 45 sec, and it’s been 72 sec since your last successful proc, you’ll get a 1.3x multiplier to your proc chance. If you’ve been out of combat for a few min, and it’s been 5 min since your last successful proc, you’ll get a whopping 16.5x multiplier to your proc chance.

Source: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/8197741003" target="_blank

So unlike the infight proc, which will allways have the chance of 120 sec since last proc, the pre-proc chance is higher than that, depending on how long you didnt fight. Which some here tend to say is abusive (and the more i read into it the more i think the same). Wether they intended it or not, they are aware of it (fruit basket fix) and didnt patch it yet.

Regarding to fire pulling ahead of arcane on single target with double trinket procs on the pull is highly unlikely. Having amazing 2nd or 3rd Combustion is far greater DPS increase than double tinket procs on the pull.

Iam refering to: http://www.simulationcraft.org/reports/Raid_T17M.html" target="_blank
Where fire single target dps is just 2300 behind arcane and thats a simulation without double trinket pre-procs (which fire can trigger in a natural way). Those simulations already take "amazing combustions" into account, but they run a large amount of iterations to counter the variance. The 2 extra trinkets at the start are a significant dps increase for fire, and i would be really interested in doing regular simulations, since fire mages usually use them anyway.

Also the sims you mentioned, DPS increase won't be the same in 660 gear and in 690.

Very true and very important that you mention it. Sims were done with the given brf mythic profiles and are only a rough indicator what pre-procs provide. They are not official sims, since you cant simulate pre-procs in a full 300 sec duration with the current implementation of RPPM in simcraft.

[Killberry]

The trinket procs are ofc balanced. The Procrate is pretty balanced if you increase the duration/number of attempts of a fight. You make an argument based on a sample size of 1. RPPM is a mechanic, that trys to normalize randomness but wont entirely negate it.

Then how do you explain the following 2 logs:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/w4 ... &source=17" target="_blank
Howling Soul ~26%
Instability ~ 26%

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/w4 ... &source=20" target="_blank
Howling Soul ~13%
Instability ~21.6%

Both fights are on 3:50 duration.
As you said, it won't negate randomness, but randomness is still there. So let's say on second log, he does the trick and get double trinket procs on the pull, he'd still have less uptime on Howling Soul. As I was saying if you get extremly lucky trinket procs won't be balanced and same each pull, they can be, but this is RNG mechanic. You can still have pulls with shit procs and pulls whit amazingly good procs.

Talking about trinkets on the pull, I've never seen honestly a log without RPPM trinkets procing on the pull. In the end, RPPM trinkets reset as soon as you enter boss combat.

Iam refering to: http://www.simulationcraft.org/reports/Raid_T17M.html" target="_blank
Where fire single target dps is just 2300 behind arcane and thats a simulation without double trinket pre-procs (which fire can trigger in a natural way). Those simulations already take "amazing combustions" into account, but they run a large amount of iterations to counter the variance. The 2 extra trinkets at the start are a significant dps increase for fire, and i would be really interested in doing regular simulations, since fire mages usually use them anyway.

Yes, on average. If you check both of those Sim results, you can see distribution by iterations, and highest for fire was 62.3k, while for arcane it was 60.9k. As you said, those results are obtained without double trinket proc. Even now fire could overtake arcane on single target. Doing double trinket proc won't make it guaranteed, that on average, fire will perform better on single target. You can also check the lowest iteration for fire (42.6k) and for arcane 49.3k).

[gameorg]

Once again, dont focus an small samples. Among a large amount of tries, you will see a balance in procs. Simcraft doesnt do anything different than that. Increase sample size to minimize randomness.

Talking about trinkets on the pull, I've never seen honestly a log without RPPM trinkets procing on the pull. In the end, RPPM trinkets reset as soon as you enter boss combat.

Depends on what you mean. I said, they are not guaranteed to proc on the first cast/combatstart, and explained why. (Sample: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/qf ... iew=events" target="_blank Crit Trinket procced at 6 sec). They are guaranteed to proc in the first 10 seconds due tho their high RPPM. 4P fire for example is guaranteed to proc in the first 30 seconds (lower RPPM Chance).

Yes, on average. If you check both of those Sim results, you can see distribution by iterations, and highest for fire was 62.3k, while for arcane it was 60.9k. As you said, those results are obtained without double trinket proc. Even now fire could overtake arcane on single target.Doing double trinket proc won't make it guaranteed, that on average, fire will perform better on single target. You can also check the lowest iteration for fire (42.6k) and for arcane 49.3k).

Nice find on the variance. Its quite interesting that a lucky Fire mage can already pull ahead of Arcane single target.

*edit: Removed Sims, due to Komma's Feedback.

[Komma]

20 second sims are a really, really bad metric. As Fire, your Combustion hasn't even runs its full duration yet, because it takes more than 10 seconds to set up your first Combustion. This of course, gets shortened a lot with haste and crit trinket procs. Ability usages aren't comparable anymore. Mana level changes, lasting DOTs, timers, all of which are way off. Arcane suddenly realizes that it should do nothing but full burn, ignoring all mana constraints, due to a short predicted end of fight. Arcane Orb becomes a strong candidate simply because you don't need to spend those first 5 seconds casting low charge Arcane Blasts.

There are ways to compare the effects of 20 second trinkets in sims. This is not one of them.