[7.1.5] Fire mage guide for Legion, by Rinoa

[Weezdion]

I believe what Dye was trying to say is this scenario:

When you cast fireball without having HU, you don't know if it will crit or not, so you need to wait for that to land in order to know if you will have HU for PF to use. That is DPS loss as usually when not doing anything.

Other scenario is you chain second fireball followed up with PF. PF should land first due to faster flight time and you will get HS. But you lost possible HU proc from second fireball. DPS loss again.

Only way to use PF is to combine it with FB or during Combustion. And if you do that it will always align with RoP and Combustion since you are saving FO for Combustion if using Kindling or sync it with RoP if you are using CiS. If you don't use PF during Combustion and use it only during non Combustion RoP you will end up at 3 stacks wasting DPS from PF. Outside of Combustion and RoP PF is just not usable with Fireball due to reasons above and that is not considering RoP damage loss.

[Curnivore]

You are not doing any serious napkin math here. You are also not adding anything new to the argument. This reaches the point that only a simulation would give a reliable answer, or alternatively a full formulation of the game, but the latter hasn't seen the light of day for a while now. Edit the APL and see if scorch is superior there.

[Shadra]

Other scenario is you chain second fireball followed up with PF. PF should land first due to faster flight time and you will get HS. But you lost possible HU proc from second fireball. DPS loss again.

Afaik, PF doesn't have a faster flight time. I've tried following a FB with a PF while I have HU, only to end up with HU again.

[Woke]

What I was trying to get at is that, if there are two PF charges you don't expend during Combustion, that's two additional charges of PF you can expend later.

And if you have Phoenix Reborn trait, you get PF charges faster, so on an AoE fight, you're going to have to expend those anyways in order to not cap, and if you are in an AoE fight, you are going to want to line up RoP with PF charges during heavy AoE phases. The problem is, you are going to create a dps loss for yourself if you are trying to time PF charges with a HU proc on single-target.This is because you have to stop casting the follow-up fireball for the PR or you have to wait for the fireball to proc to know if you should use a PF charge. In a 4 target stacked sim, if you sit on 2 charges of PF during Combustion, you will be capped before the combustion is over due to PR trait.

[Woke]

You are not doing any serious napkin math here. You are also not adding anything new to the argument. This reaches the point that only a simulation would give a reliable answer, or alternatively a full formulation of the game, but the latter hasn't seen the light of day for a while now. Edit the APL and see if scorch is superior there.

The simulation is going to show a dps loss for single-target, and for 4 target AoE stacked for you to prioritize scorch over using PF charges on the opener. A 34k crit scorch is not going to net more hot-streaks long-term in single-target and especially not 4 target AoE stacked models. the PF + splash damage on AoE 4 target stacked during the opener over the scorch is hands down going to be significantly better than the scorch to save PF charges, because you're regenerating them so fast with PR trait.

Sorry for the double post mods, but it was easier to address these two separately.

[kasthor]

I simed it and as I expected, casting scorch intead of PF in combustion phase is a dps loss (not 100% sure I did everything correctly so if you want to do it too Frosted, go ahead) :




My guess is that PF being our second best damage per execute time spell, we need to make it benefit as mush as possible of RP/PI. Indeed, in my first sim, damage per execute time for PF is at 316,385 but in the second it's only at 288,057.

[KAMBO1431]

I simed it and as I expected, casting scorch intead of PF in combustion phase is a dps loss (not 100% sure I did everything correctly so if you want to do it too Frosted, go ahead) :




My guess is that PF being our second best damage per execute time spell, we need to make it benefit as mush as possible of RP/PI. Indeed, in my first sim, damage per execute time for PF is at 316,385 but in the second it's only at 288,057.

Hi kasthor, you've interpreted the results incorrectly, that result shows there is no significant difference between PF & Scorch use.

[Frosted]

I simed it and as I expected, casting scorch intead of PF in combustion phase is a dps loss (not 100% sure I did everything correctly so if you want to do it too Frosted, go ahead) :




My guess is that PF being our second best damage per execute time spell, we need to make it benefit as mush as possible of RP/PI. Indeed, in my first sim, damage per execute time for PF is at 316,385 but in the second it's only at 288,057.

Hi kasthor, you've interpreted the results incorrectly, that result shows there is no significant difference between PF & Scorch use.

? The error is almost certainly small enough to say there is a large difference in DPS between one or the other.

[KAMBO1431]

I simed it and as I expected, casting scorch intead of PF in combustion phase is a dps loss (not 100% sure I did everything correctly so if you want to do it too Frosted, go ahead) :




My guess is that PF being our second best damage per execute time spell, we need to make it benefit as mush as possible of RP/PI. Indeed, in my first sim, damage per execute time for PF is at 316,385 but in the second it's only at 288,057.

Hi kasthor, you've interpreted the results incorrectly, that result shows there is no significant difference between PF & Scorch use.

? The error is almost certainly small enough to say there is a large difference in DPS between one or the other.

? they look the same, the numbers have a 1% difference.

[Curnivore]

Read what you wrote. They are different. The fact they are different by 1% does not make them not different.

[Frantik]

funny semantics we have here...isn't 1% within margin of error? which makes them ''different'' but in practice you can't tell them apart

[Curnivore]

isn't 1% within margin of error?

Nope, the error in regular simulations does not extend to 1% of total DPS.

update: e.g. something I was running today at 15k iterations had error at 0.067% of total DPS and it can be lower with more iterations.

update: to get around 1% you have to drop to about 100 iterations and nobody runs sims like that.

[kasthor]

I ran the sim with Target Error at 0.03% (which took 82041 iterations)

[Artenuis]

I simed it and as I expected, casting scorch intead of PF in combustion phase is a dps loss (not 100% sure I did everything correctly so if you want to do it too Frosted, go ahead) :




My guess is that PF being our second best damage per execute time spell, we need to make it benefit as mush as possible of RP/PI. Indeed, in my first sim, damage per execute time for PF is at 316,385 but in the second it's only at 288,057.

Keep in mind that Scorch doesn't replace PF during Combustion entirely. Not sure how much of a difference it makes, but it's a difference nonetheless. I do take it this is a Patchwerk style scenario?

I must say I'm slightly taken aback by the difference in the damage averages of PF, though I suppose it makes sense with how sparse the PF casts are combined with the significant damage buff from PI.

[ray007]

Hi,
just a question regarding the relics. Which one of these would give me better damage output:
level 45 relic with increased fireblast damage by 8%
or
level 43 relic with increased ignite damage by 4% ?
thanks.

[Artenuis]

Probably Ignite.

[shvndrgn]

Keep in mind that each weapon ilvl increase gives a boatload of stats.

[ray007]

Actually i went with ignite one and it has increased my dps by a good margin specially on adds. Plus i didnt see too much difference in my stats like crit which is the most important stats anyways.

[Tagain]

Actually i went with ignite one and it has increased my dps by a good margin specially on adds. Plus i didnt see too much difference in my stats like crit which is the most important stats anyways.

That is because there is no crit on Felo'melorn (only Blizz knows why). Your Int, Haste and Mastery should have increased.

[nickseng]

That is because there is no crit on Felo'melorn (only Blizz knows why). Your Int, Haste and Mastery should have increased.

There is. Check your off-hand