Fire mage trinket sims (all ilvls) by Binkenstein

[Dutchmagoz]

Source (created by Binkenstein)

Last run: 26th of Jan for 7.1.5 with hotfixed trinkets

All sims are done on single target, using the default mythic nighthold gear profiles/talents as base for the sims. For the best results you should always sim your own character.

Arcane
Full size


Fire
Full size


Frost
Full size


All credits go to Binkenstein. (website: https://binkenstein.wordpress.com/" target="_blank)

[skiz]

TL;DR:
No matter which itemlevel, this is your bis trinket: http://www.wowhead.com/item=140800/phar ... bonus=3514" target="_blank
For the 2nd trinketslot just import your character into simcraft as usual, then remove any trinket line and add the trinkets you want to sim. The highest result will probably be either one of the raid trinkets or a stat stick. High itemlevel dungeontrinkets are also worth simming. Anything that is 20 Itemlevel below is not worth simming. Icon of rot is a trap. See code:

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## Simply remove them or add "#" infront. #trinket1=whispers_in_the_dark,id=140809,bonus_id=3519 #trinket2=erratic_metronome,id=140792,bonus_id=3445 # Your pharamere's trinket should still be inside the sim to keep it. trinket2=,id=140800,ilevel=880 copy="Erratic Metronome" trinket1=,id=140792,ilevel=880 copy="Burning sky" trinket1=,id=140801,ilevel=880 copy="Star Gate" trinket1=,id=140804,ilevel=880 copy="Whispers in the Dark" trinket1=,id=140809,ilevel=880

This is actually the post:

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Arans_Relaxing_Ruby 574,122 Arans_Relaxing_Ruby_Chest 547,101

That's not the only mistake in the data from binkenstein. It does not cover the current "itemleveldancing" of trinkets. Trinkets that outperform others are useless, while useless trinkets are bis. Sheet is completly misleading. For fire raid trinkets this should roughly be the result:

Bis for fire should be:
http://www.wowhead.com/item=140792/erra ... bonus=3443" target="_blank highest rppm, relatively stable results. RNG will not screw you that hard.
http://www.wowhead.com/item=140800/phar ... bonus=3514" target="_blank additional targets in raid are usually short living that the value of this trinket skyrockets. RoP is buffing this trinket slightly more than any other.

On bosses like skorpyron, where you can have X targets for the entire duration these two slightly overperform everything:
http://www.wowhead.com/item=140801/fury ... bonus=3514" target="_blank
http://www.wowhead.com/item=140804/star ... bonus=3514" target="_blank

http://www.wowhead.com/item=140809/whis ... bonus=3515" target="_blank highly favors haste, changes stat weights, performs really high on average Singeltarget. It has such a low RPPM and high impact that it will be a very nice trinket to pray for rankings - it is basically win or lose depending on proccs. More RNG is nothing you want as fire. It is mostly impossibel to adjust cooldowns to it, but if you're able to the gain from those proccs this trinket skyrockets. Other casters i.e. warlocks have a higher gain from it.
http://www.wowhead.com/item=140798/icon ... bonus=3514" target="_blank this one is just garbage. Unless you don't have any okayish trinket.

Generally speaking:
- Itemlevel upgrades on trinkets are almost not necessary this raid content. They don't scale that well. With current RNG even on 100 iterations it is random if a 920 or 880 trinket is better on sims.
- talents like RoP and MI slightly change values.
- Trinkets are that close to each other for firemages that a simple +5 itemlevel may make another trinket worth it. That is not true for icon of rot.
- highly recommend to simply stick with Pharamere's in 1 slot and sim which trinket is better for you. If you want to go further valueing Pharamere's is a bit more work.

Further reading:
This is one of the sims I used to double-check my results. You should easily see the itemlevel dancing from trinkets on this one. Simming Pharamere's is a bit difficult, on equal itemlevel it is tuned to underperform any trinket (except icon of rot) slightly - however if you've a higher itemlevel pharamer's it is better. Looking into NH I don't see any singeltarget encounter. Most encounters have short living adds that need to be focused, some have long living adds. Rarely there is an encounter were you actually ignore an add for the entire duration. Adding just 1 short living target to sims and making sure that nothing bugs leads to Pharamere to be roughly 15 itemlevels ahead of any trinket:


Fury of burning sky is a low stat stick with a high damage procc, Stargate is a high stat stick with a low damage procc. Both scale mostly the same way with amount of targets. It highly depends on talents / Gear which of those two is better for you. Stargate has less rng, tho. One of those two's is generally "Itemleveldancing" with Whispers / Erratic on singeltarget. I.e. it will look like this:


If your intend is to actually post a guide for anyone I highly recommend to map any trinket to Statstick + Damage procc with:
- An itemlevel scaling factor
- an amount of target scaling factor
- an uptime of target scaling factor

Considering those 3 values the result should be:

On high adduptime:
Fury > Stargate > Pharemere's > Erratic >= Whispers

On no add uptime:
Erratic >= Whispers > Fury >= Stargate > Pharemere's

On 1+ of targets but quite low add uptime. This is where I would fit in almost every raidboss in Nighthold.
Pharemere's >>>>> Erratic >= Fury >= Stargate >= Whispers

Edit: For mythics: Fury > Pharemere's > Stargate > Erratic >= Whispers.

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mage="Mage_Fire_T19M_NH" level=110 race=troll role=spell position=back talents=1012022 artifact=54:0:0:0:0:748:1:749:3:750:3:751:3:752:3:753:3:754:3:755:3:756:3:757:3:758:1:759:1:760:1:761:1:762:1:763:1:1340:1:1372:20 spec=fire head=nighthold_custodians_hood,id=140851,bonus_id=3445 neck=belerons_choker_of_misery,id=140899,bonus_id=3518,enchant_id=5439 shoulders=chaosscarred_mantle,id=140853,bonus_id=3445 back=cloak_of_everburning_knowledge,id=138365,bonus_id=3518,enchant=binding_of_intellect chest=robe_of_everburning_knowledge,id=138318,bonus_id=3518 wrists=bracers_of_harnessed_flame,id=140850,bonus_id=3518 hands=gloves_of_everburning_knowledge,id=138309,bonus_id=3518 waist=manari_skullbuckled_cinch,id=140887,bonus_id=3518 legs=leggings_of_everburning_knowledge,id=138315,bonus_id=3518 feet=outcast_wanderers_footrags,id=140914,bonus_id=3519 finger1=spellblades_gemmed_signet,id=140895,bonus_id=3518,enchant=binding_of_critical_strike finger2=ring_of_exclusive_servitude,id=140906,bonus_id=3518,enchant=binding_of_critical_strike #trinket1=whispers_in_the_dark,id=140809,bonus_id=3519 #trinket2=erratic_metronome,id=140792,bonus_id=3445 main_hand=felomelorn,id=128820,gem_id=140834/140810/140834,relic_id=3518/3518/3518 off_hand=heart_of_the_phoenix,id=133959 copy="Erratic 880" trinket1=,id=140792,ilevel=880 copy="Erratic 890" trinket1=,id=140792,ilevel=890 copy="Erratic 900" trinket1=,id=140792,ilevel=900 copy="Erratic 910" trinket1=,id=140792,ilevel=910 copy="Erratic 920" trinket1=,id=140792,ilevel=920 copy="Burning sky 880" trinket1=,id=140801,ilevel=880 copy="Burning 890" trinket1=,id=140801,ilevel=890 copy="Burning 900" trinket1=,id=140801,ilevel=900 copy="Burning 910" trinket1=,id=140801,ilevel=910 copy="Burning 920" trinket1=,id=140801,ilevel=920 copy="Forbidden grimoire 880" trinket1=,id=140800,ilevel=880 copy="Forbidden 890" trinket1=,id=140800,ilevel=890 copy="Forbidden 900" trinket1=,id=140800,ilevel=900 copy="Forbidden 910" trinket1=,id=140800,ilevel=910 copy="Forbidden 920" trinket1=,id=140800,ilevel=920 copy="Star Gate 880" trinket1=,id=140804,ilevel=880 copy="Star Gate 890" trinket1=,id=140804,ilevel=890 copy="Star Gate 900" trinket1=,id=140804,ilevel=900 copy="Star Gate 910" trinket1=,id=140804,ilevel=910 copy="Star Gate 920" trinket1=,id=140804,ilevel=920 copy="Whispers in the Dark 880" trinket1=,id=140809,ilevel=880 copy="Whispers in the Dark 890" trinket1=,id=140809,ilevel=890 copy="Whispers in the Dark 900" trinket1=,id=140809,ilevel=900 copy="Whispers in the Dark 910" trinket1=,id=140809,ilevel=910 copy="Whispers in the Dark 920" trinket1=,id=140809,ilevel=920 copy="Icon of Rot_880" trinket1=,id=140798,ilevel=880 copy="Icon of Rot_890" trinket1=,id=140798,ilevel=890 copy="Icon of Rot_900" trinket1=,id=140798,ilevel=900 copy="Icon of Rot_910" trinket1=,id=140798,ilevel=910 copy="Icon of Rot_920" trinket1=,id=140798,ilevel=920

Edit: Worth to mention that for such things simcraft isn't an ideal tool. Rewriting APLs to delay trinkets is painfull depending when they spawn. If you really want an accurate answer that is. For just looking into pharamere's overriding the damage from pharameres may be the way you wanna go.

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override.spell_data=effect.346452.average=269.58 # this is twice baseline damage, for 2 targets

[Skolodac]

TL;DR:
No matter which itemlevel, this is your bis trinket: http://www.wowhead.com/item=140800/phar ... bonus=3514" target="_blank

Could you explain why this trinket is so OP? In Frosted's SimC it showed that this trinket isn't good, even on AOE.(I didn't try in my own SimC). Legendary trinket is better, isn't it(I don't have it)? Thanks.

[Lahrast]

TL;DR:
No matter which itemlevel, this is your bis trinket: http://www.wowhead.com/item=140800/phar ... bonus=3514" target="_blank

Could you explain why this trinket is so OP? In Frosted's SimC it showed that this trinket isn't good, even on AOE.(I didn't try in my own SimC). Legendary trinket is better, isn't it(I don't have it)? Thanks.

because you can snipe ae-dps on certain encounters (auriel, guldan especially), i have it and it's pretty sick on those.
then there's the question if this dps matters and it does not IMO (except auriel mythic where the adds live long enough and spawn exactly in 1m intervals)
depending on how you want to play (i prefer rune) you either want metronome/whispers for MI or fury/metronome/stargate for RoP (preferrably helya statsticks rly.. my 895 crit beats the mythic metronome..)

and then there's the thing that those scales are for non-fire legendary sims which will shift things around again... so there's no tl:dr here really.
if you need a tl:dr for this graph you're not capable of using the grimoire to the extend and timing necessary, as well as the guldan trinket - so statstick/metronome/stargate it should be (that's not meant as mean as it sounds, it's just my opinion from experience)

[Skolodac]

if you need a tl:dr for this graph you're not capable of using the grimoire to the extend and timing necessary, as well as the guldan trinket - so statstick/metronome/stargate it should be (that's not meant as mean as it sounds, it's just my opinion from experience)

Well I've read it all, I didn't wanna copy it all.

If I could ask again and better(My english isn't good so I understand only to few things which skiz wrote):

So that "OP" trinket is good for encounters where adds live long or die quickly? Thank you for responding.

[Falq]

So that "OP" trinket is good for encounters where adds live long or die quickly? Thank you for responding.

Die quickly So you can get max efficiency from your cds, LB/DB/Trinket RoP burn things down, and wait ~1min for another add to repeat that. Other trinkets either don't do dmg (like Star Gate) or don't have reliable procs to rely on (Burning Sky) to get damage out exactly time you want, also timing every second use of trinket with combustion helps a lot

[Imaskar]

I see grimoire being very low on the graph and then suddenly praised high in the text later. This is confusing. Also, by the graphs it seems there aren't much contenders to beat 885 int/crit and 865 arcanocrystal until procced mythics.

[Skolodac]

I see grimoire being very low on the graph and then suddenly praised high in the text later. This is confusing. Also, by the graphs it seems there aren't much contenders to beat 885 int/crit and 865 arcanocrystal until procced mythics.

I agree - this is confusing. I'll try that trinket today with Burning Sky(I don't have better atm - only Aran, Sinew, Tooth) and also haste build that someone recommended.

[Falq]

I see grimoire being very low on the graph and then suddenly praised high in the text later. This is confusing. Also, by the graphs it seems there aren't much contenders to beat 885 int/crit and 865 arcanocrystal until procced mythics.

That's because sims are ST, and we are talking about most NH situations where adds often appear every like 1min or sth like that. As usuall Theory != Practise.

[Imaskar]

Scorp - adds appear way more often
Anomaly - only one add, often not stacked with the boss. Or to wait to pad on the small ones? Half-check.
Trillax - ST
Aluriel - check
Krosus - ST
Tich - way more often
Etraeus - ST (not stacked or padding on little ones, which is not useful at all)
Botan - adds are up more than 66% of the fight.
Elisande - one add? Half-check.
Guldan - one add and 3 at once for 1 time and a lucky snipe on eyes? Lets say check.

Total 3/10.

[Lahrast]

Scorp - adds appear way more often
Anomaly - only one add, often not stacked with the boss. Or to wait to pad on the small ones? Half-check.
Trillax - ST
Aluriel - check
Krosus - ST
Tich - way more often
Etraeus - ST (not stacked or padding on little ones, which is not useful at all)
Botan - adds are up more than 66% of the fight.
Elisande - one add? Half-check.
Guldan - one add and 3 at once for 1 time and a lucky snipe on eyes? Lets say check.

Total 3/10.

i totally agree. from my testing the grimoire is only really viable for aluriel and to a certain extend for guldan if you have problems with burning down eyes. otherwise burning sky is the way to go (does 5-10% of my dps reliably, more on ticho and bota)

and also as already mentioned the graphs are for non-legi geared profiles that have MI specced, totally overvaluing haste as a stat. my 910 fury sims higher on ST than the standard 900 metronome because with belt/bracers and RoP mastery is equal to haste and vers (crit > int > vers=mastery=haste to be precise), even with 2p bonus wich i have

[Imaskar]

I thought the bracers also promote haste.

[illwil]

I thought the bracers also promote haste.

I have bracers and 2 piece, but no belt. Even when I run MI crit still scales slightly higher for me.

[skiz]

From the feedback I've gotten so far, I would like to add:

1. I don't want to argue Pharamere's is BiS because of consistency VS randomness. However, I value consistency definitly as a DPS increase. Examples:
1.A) Singeltarget Pyromaniac / MI / FO / UM / CiS.

Worth to mention the error is 500 dps on 10k iterations. I should run more iterations for some itemlevels, but on i.e. 920 itemlevel you do see that Whispers outperforms Erratic on average. Erratic is 12 RPPM, whispers 0.7 RPPM. You should have seen reports that even on 2-3 minute fights there was no Whispers in the dark procc. This is possible, this is rng. Thats why I value Erratic > Whispers for Singeltarget. And if you would take a look at what other casters get out of whispers trinket then I highly recommend to pass for this trinket untill every other class in your raid has it. Should mention that if you just want DPS-rankings then whispers in the dark is your padding trinket #1.

2. I don't want to explain why this trinket is so OP, because I can not do that without wasting tons of time. But I can give you the idea behind it. And I really can't give you a picture describing current mage trinkets. The closest one I can do is:

On high adduptime:
Fury > Stargate > Pharemere's > Erratic >= Whispers

On no add uptime:
Erratic >= Whispers > Fury >= Stargate > Pharemere's

On 1+ of targets but quite low add uptime. This is where I would fit in almost every raidboss in Nighthold.
Pharemere's >>>>> Erratic >= Fury >= Stargate >= Whispers [2nd trinket depends on talents. Other classes get way more out of Whispers. You probably want Erratic, Stargate or Fury.]

For mythics: Fury > Pharemere's > Stargate > Erratic >= Whispers.

Examples:
2.A) Simple 2 target simulations, 100% add uptime.

The error is still 500 dps on 10k iterations. I could make the same RNG statement as above, it still fits. However, if the add uptime is lower but still lines up with On-Use-trinket you should realize that Pharamere's will pull ahead. The raid simulation which I do need to sim that Pharamere is decent is an add-fight. Not Singeltarget, not a council like fight where you've 3 targets the whole time.

Furthermore stuff like desynced adds from Pharameres or no adds during combustion are things that highly devalue the on use trinket. Do you want to use it during Combustion or delay it to adds? Do you want to use it on cooldown or delay it to adds? Mostly delaying it for adds is the right choice for that one.

What if you don't run MI? RoP is a 40% buff to this trinkets damage portion. This is huge.

2.B) To be honest the easiest way to match the value of this trinket is the following approach:
- http://www.wowhead.com/item=140801/fury ... =1497:3514" target="_blank is roughly equally designed. ~1000 secondary stat + Damage stuff.
- If http://www.wowhead.com/item=140800/phar ... =1497:3514" target="_blank damage portion does outperform Fury's damage portion it is probably better. (There is still the haste / mastery thing, but lets ignore it for now)
- Fury sims highest for 2 or more target fights with 100% adduptime. If Pharamere beats it, it is obviously better.
- Whispers in the dark sims highest for 1 target.

Correctly mathing this out is anoying. Here comes napkin math! Way easier but not correct.
Looking into simcraft, this is fury's dps for Singeltarget Pyromaniac / MI / FO / UM / CiS.

~29k dps from procc. Worth to mention that a 920 itemlevel fury has a value of ~40k dps. Furthermore the damage of fury scales with targets, cause it is an AoE Damage. So If I have 2 targets it does ~58k dps.

So to describe Fury's damage I can use:
29000 * targets * uptime in %.

For Pharamere's I could do the same. Basically, the result should be: Pharamere's damage * class multipliers * crit multiplier. Having Combustion for every 2nd Pharamere would really buff this one, so I simply turned combustion off. From Simcraft I get 20000 dps * targets.

29000 * targets * uptime in % < 20000 * targets => uptime < 69%. Shortly, on equal targets I need 70% add uptime to make fury of the burning Sky outperform the on use trinket if the on use trinket is used on cooldown but outside combustion.

Same applies to Whispers for singeltarget. For Whispers in the dark I can compare the difference between fury and the trinket and then create a buffed fury that matches it so I can describe the value of Whispers in the dark with. This is simcraft result with:

Close enough, so I get this: 39000* targets * uptime in % as a function to describe Whispers in the dark. [for 1 target atleast]

39000* targets * uptime in % < 20000 => uptime < 51%. Shortly, on 1 target I need 51% add uptime to Whispers in the dark outperform the on use trinket if the on use trinket is used on cooldown but outside combustion.

Should mention that burning sky should be the best trinket for 2 target+ council fights so basically:
Pharamere's BiS if you can use it on cooldown with:
- Singeltarget adduptime <51%
- Multitarget adduptime <69%

This is complete napkin math, but should give a ROUGH idea where the trinket is. Personally, I don't trust those results. I find myself in situations where I don't use it on cooldown, instead I keep it for adds. But I do trust that I can easily describe Fury of the burning sky and Whispers in the dark with the above functions quite decently. Taking those functions I can easily look into a log and compare the amount of damage MY SPECIFIC use of Pharamere's does compared to other trinkets. Still have to judge if the damage which it does is usefull.

2.C) This is probably the best approach:

Scorp - adds appear way more often
Anomaly - only one add, often not stacked with the boss. Or to wait to pad on the small ones? Half-check.
Trillax - ST
Aluriel - check
Krosus - ST
Tich - way more often
Etraeus - ST (not stacked or padding on little ones, which is not useful at all)
Botan - adds are up more than 66% of the fight.
Elisande - one add? Half-check.
Guldan - one add and 3 at once for 1 time and a lucky snipe on eyes? Lets say check.

Total 3/10.

For me that list looks like:
Scorp - Trash mob.
Anomaly - Trash mob.
Trillax - Trash mob if you find the dispell key.
Aluriel - check
Krosus - ST, if you struggle with adds and I bet you will check.
Tich - If you struggle with BATS and I bet you will then Check. Add DPS outside of bats hardly matters from my PoV. Otherwise this is ST.
Etraeus - ST
Botan - adds are up more than 66% of the fight. Difficult to judge. Fury may be competitive, but probably check.
Elisande - Check.
Guldan - one add and 3 at once for 1 time and a lucky snipe on eyes? Not sure about this huge delays on the trinket.

5/7 not counting guldan, but probably gonna be 6/7. I highly recommend to think of Pharamere's as another Dragonsbreath legendary. But as Lahrast mentioned, it depends if you need AoE DPS.

3.) Fury / Stargate is also underrated on the Graph from Binkenstein. Mostly because they scale better with other talents / legendaries / haste values.

my 910 fury sims higher on ST than the standard 900 metronome because with belt/bracers and RoP mastery is equal to haste and vers (crit > int > vers=mastery=haste to be precise), even with 2p bonus wich i have

This. Highly recommend to sim for the question fury > stargate > whispers > metronome.

[Jaymei]

I managed to pick up an Forbidden Grimoire this week and finally got to tinker around with it in a small M+ Maw last night.

The damage output of that trinket is absolutely bananas with RoP and Combustion. B-A-N-A-N-A-S. The trinket was my highest damaging spell by several percentage points. More than PB, Ignite, and even LB.

Ill probably keep in it my bag for most raid encounters, as the minimum range limitation is difficult to deal with, but for M+ it feels like a must have.

[Oz1222]

Skiz, What are your thoughts on the legendary trinket vs grimoir?

[Efe]

Hi.
Any1 have testing http://www.wowhead.com/item=137433/obel ... bonus=1727

[dwaas]

Hello,

I just got a 910 Infernal Writ from weekly chest. I also have 885 metronome, 890 urn
Also 910 writ isn't on this list so it could potentially be better than both metronome and urn.
Which should i be using for pure single target and which ones for cleave fights?

[Tutsoon]

Oh no I didn't DE the eye yet, I have been using a socketed 875 writ and 875 urn, I also have the fury and 875 ruby I use for mythic + aoe, but I was just lucky enough to get the grimore. Single target my urn and writ sim loads higher than anything else, even the guldan trinket

[Shitbird]

if you need a tl:dr for this graph you're not capable of using the grimoire to the extend and timing necessary, as well as the guldan trinket

I might be retarded then, but how do you "use" the guldan trinket when it's a random proc