Talents for High M+?

[Delandel]

How do we maximize our DPS for higher M+ keys, like 11 or more? This is when average pulls have 3-4 mobs at a time, not 10+ mobs like at lower keys.

I don't have any relevant legendaries (Shard and Belovar) and sim'd it for myself (4 boss targets), getting this:

Fury + Patch > Flame On + Patch >> Fury + LB > Flame + LB

So it seems 2-2-2-1-1-3-2 is the best at least for me. However, that's a Patchwerk style fight, and doesn't consider the more hectic nature of M+. I don't know how reasonable it is to expect mobs to sit in Flame Patch's full 8 second duration, but I also don't know how long they do need to sit in there for before it's superior to LB anyway.

What are your thoughts?

[Spookytooth]

I think with 3-4 mobs patch almost always wins out and if your dropping fs all the time that 50% movement debuff can save the tank or healer on higher levels especially on affix's like necrotic and skittish

[skiz]

https://www.altered-time.com/forum/view ... f=4&t=2828" target="_blank

[Syana]

https://www.altered-time.com/forum/view ... f=4&t=2828

Most of the information in that thread is more than 3 months old, meaning it is pre 7.1.5 which changed things quite a bit. Might be worth actually checking if a thread has useful information before posting it and nothing else.

Personally I think Blast Wave is a potential dps loss, depending on affixes of course, and the slow is already applied by flamestrike. Shimmer will most likely be better for the times that you are up against things like Volcanic or simply doing Neltharions and will probably get you killed during skittish.

As for Alexstrasza's Fury, without the legendary head I feel like it doesn't make up for the dps hit you take on bosses, especially during Tyrannical. But I could be wrong.

Flame Patch seems like a good all-around talent for mythic+ because even if you do come across larger packs it doesn't fall far behind LB. However this also depends on affixes and your tank.

Only concern I have had with running Cinder is when using it in combination with Flame Patch. Because it feels like I'm benefiting less from Flame Patch as a result. But I doubt it actually makes any difference.

[Elandelor]

It also depends on which dungeon you´re doing. I´m going to give examples, since I´m no expert (so I´d figure all I can do is to share my recent experience).
I´ve got 2 sets of equipment that I use:
- ST w/ 2pc + metronome + whispers and equipped ilvl of 898 (stats are crit 55, haste 17, mast 13, versa 2)
- MT (no 2pc) w/ fury + aran chest paired and equipped ilvl of 896 (stats are crit 58, haste 10, mast 20, versa 2)

For instance, in EoA +13 (raging/necro/fort) I´d run 2/1/2/2/1/1/2 and end the dungeon w/ 650-700k overall dmg, having used 375 crit food, rune and flask.
On the other hand, in MoS +12 or +14 (bolst/overfl/tyr), w/ the same setup I´d pull 500-550k. And on MoS +16 using 2/1/2/2/1/3/2 (just swapping LB for FP), I´d pull 570-600k.

TL;DR I´m guessing if you have 4 or more targets that die fast even on high M+ you should use LB. Otherwise it´s FP.

Correct me if I´m wrong.

[Byrne]

TL;DR I´m guessing if you have 4 or more targets that die fast even on high M+ you should use LB. Otherwise it´s FP.

Correct me if I´m wrong.

Im going with this - depends on the dungeon and the lvl.

[ezekielyo]

I use LB + CiS for everything.

I haven't done any 20+ yet but even then, pulling multiple packs will be a must to clear in time. I find FP underwhelming since the tank moves none stop and having the mobs actually stand in the patch for very long never happens.

LB on the other hand is a simple "press and forget" removing some unnecessary complexity which could be put towards CS/DB/double frag grenade timings.

[kaNEt]

since u open a post here and do this question i will guess that "high m+" for you is something like what i do (image)and not actually high m+ that would be 22+.



And the awnser to your post isn't related to simulators, dungeon packs and neither weeks debuffs. It's a really fucking easy awnser tbh, but i'll be glad to give it to you and feel so thankful:

IT DEPENDS ON THE FUCKING TANK

Situational:

A: he is god, pulls fucking everything on a +19 = U WILL BE A FOOL IF U DON'T RUN LIVING BOMB + CIS
B: he is trash like almost all tanks, a fucking pussy, cares about necroting (hahha so funny) = U WILL BE A FOOL IF U DON'T RUN FLAME PATCH + METEOR

And bout fury...
1. u don't have the legendary head
2. most of the times in m+ is better to be 40yrds than melee
3. u really gain more crits from flame on (it means more flamestrikes)
4. u still wondering bout witch is better for u?

[Katsumi]

All caps and bold font, I guess you must be right then. Try not to hide the point you're trying to make under a pile of verbal trash.

Maybe someone who's actually running progress M+ could give his or her perception on the issue.

[kaNEt]

All caps and bold font, I guess you must be right then. Try not to hide the point you're trying to make under a pile of verbal trash.

Maybe someone who's actually running progress M+ could give his or her perception on the issue.

if by the current issue you mean the op one:

How do we maximize our DPS for higher M+ keys, like 11 or more? This is when average pulls have 3-4 mobs at a time, not 10+ mobs like at lower keys.

i tho i had already made the point for ppl like you but its pretty obv that you guys should run patch and meteor since you are playing against 4 target at the best scenario and:

1. you will not be doing good positioning casting CIS (tip: from the end of the dungeon to the start)
2. your trash packs will last a looooooooooooooot of time cz the "general party dps lack" and you will be able to stack a lot of patch.

[Hellflames]

It also depends on affixes, e.g. for tyrannical you may want to focus a bit more on ST (MI, meteor) since some bosses (melandrus, xavius, wrath of azshara) can be quite hard on high lvls and tyrannical (13+)

[Pank]

Haha since we have some harsh people here i'm gonna upload my progress as well from the get go to give me some credibility. Probably someone is gonna undermine me anyways

So since last week affixes were insanely good for climbing i did a bunch of 20+ dungeons in time. That was without fortified. My personal preference was always RoP,FO,LB,
CiS. Yea if there are some adds that dont just implode on overwhelming aoe dmg, yea sure you could try the flame patch. But make sure that the tank knows how to handle trash packs properly and is playing into your FP.

I really think that every dungeon that has adds with low hp ( arc spiders and withered + wyrms, eoa blobs + crabs etc) living bomb is gonna be a good option. Lb, RoP, Flamestrike for slow and leveled dmg on all mobs and your preety much gonna have at least 1mil DPS on the packs..

So its not just the affixes, its the team composition, the dungeon, how the tank approaches things.. But just a thought. Living bomb is always gonna come on top for lower hp mobs and mass aoe. Flame patch pulls ahead on sustained cleave on like 3,4 mobs. CiS is probably the best in any case, loads of pack that you can RoP and get a 20 hit CiS which is basically the dmg of one crit meteor. And the cd difference is preety dramatic I'd say.

But an example from today, NL22. Skittish, temming, fortified. Are you really gonna pull four pelters + Shaper as well? Yeah you can always dodge avalanche, but pelters just target you regardless of situation. Skittish or no skittish. So the only way to actually do it is to constantly move, so FP can't be applied there. The mobs have enough hp to live longer for the flame patch to be better. But are you really gonna do it?

Living bomb won't do much either. So it's really situational. I can forward you to warcraftlogs as well, and you can check which comps and talents are the mages there doing.

Do keep in mind those teams are doing extreme stuff and probably doing all the sketchy stuff to give them that bit of extra edge. And obviously most of them are rerunning dungeon for that perfect no mistakes run to be able to get those insane clears on 24,25 on time.

Tl;dr: have a run plan. How many packs are there, on which pack your gonna use combust or living bomb / flame patch. What affixes are active,what comp are you running... Its the details that matter on uber high keys. The time is always gonna be tight so you need to answer these questions before you go in. Sure ofc thousands of decisions are still made on the fly depending on the situation but being on the same page with the team as well is just something you cannot replace as well.

This is just my personal opinion so plox, no hate. I'd love to hear more from a higher ranking mage as well, I'm currently just bellow 1.8k but there are some on 2k as well.