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So as we've noticed with Tomb and now artorus, what sims the best on ST doesn't necessarily mean that's the most sucessive build.

Example : If you were to take the T20 profile today, and sim it with Pyromaniac, Rune, Kindling, and Shard instead of Belt it'll sim noticeably higher.

Reality : In Tomb we took FStart, Incanter's Flow, Kindling/Meteor, and Belt. When the profile was built it definitely did noticeably better (around when NLC was released as it had all T2 benefits).

Tomb 7.2.5 Logs
Tomb 7.3+ logs

And we know that the sims for this were ST patchwerk. Seeing something like : T20 Sim Stack would disparage those who don't understand how sims specifically work and their purpose of informing people.

With T21 and with 4p T21 equiped we're seeing the following builds on ST Patchwerk: Raidbots report of Fire Legendary Combos

With First day Logs we're seeing something similar to 7.2.5 logs, except we're seeing a mix with Shard and Gloves coming up.

7.3+ Throne Logs
******************PLEASE TAKE FIRST DAY LOGS WITH A MAJOR GRAIN OF SALT**************************************

My Experience in Antorus So Far

So the point of this post is to hear what builds people are playing on each encounter, and what success and failures they see. Below will be my experience so far in Antorus and what I saw did and didn't work.

World Breaker
Normal : I ran FStart/Rune/Kindling/Belt. The build is mastery heavy with some crit. I found Rune was a major hindrance on this fight even with the light movement, better players will probably maximize it way better. This was normal so Fstart didn't get enough usage, on higher difficulties Fstart is definitely the talent here imo. I saw no reason to take Meteor, Meteor Shoulders, Gloves, or Shard on this fight (unless you lust off the bat).

Heroic : I ran the same build, but I did poorly. A Shard build could work here too. Really just depends on how many lusts you get. Not a fan of rune here, but it is probably the best bet.

Doggies
Normal : I ran Pyro/IF/Kindling/Shard. The build is Crit heavy with equal Haste/Mastery. I found that running IF was way better than Rune here due to overlaps. FStart gets really low usage on Normal... So no need to technically take it with shard. Taking it with belt is a smart move so you can keep yourself mastery heavy for the ST damage. I saw no need to run meteor here. And I think I would rather have Belt for this encounter generically.

Heroic : same as Normal

High Command
Normal : I ran Conflag/IF/LB/Kindling/Gloves. The build is Mastery Heavy, I use this build for cleave situations only, but if it was for ST I'd run heavier amounts of crit. I found that Rune could be really good here, even though I'm too lazy to run it/execute it well. Livingbomb imo was the wrong choice. Chargers can easily run out making timing of the bomb sub-optimal. Running Flame Patch is probably a stronger talent. Kindling for sure here especially with gloves. And I felt Gloves was a much stronger choice. Having Combustion up more often is way to strong on cleave to give it up.

Heroic : I ran Conflag/IF/FP/Kindling/Shard. Gloves is better I think, but my team was derping and needed more ST so I switched to a pure st build. Belt is probably better here as well.

Eonar
Normal : I ran Conflag/IF/FP/Kindling/Shard. I ran the wrong gear setup on this fight and did fairly well. I should've takent the same setup as High Command. Rune could be useful here, conflag or pyro is probably the choice here. Conflag is good the longer the adds live, on normal that's no useful at all. Pyro could give you more Flame Strikes which is amazing for add spawns.Living Bomb would be nice if the adds living longer. But I think the fact you already wanna spam Flamestrike for snaring, Flame Patch is a much better decision. Cinderstorm, might *MIGHT* be good here. I'd rather have the Combustion uptime though, personally. As for legendaries, I'd prefer Helm/Gloves or Bracers/Gloves. This is kinda in a weird spot, and really depends on add health on higher difficulties.

Heroic : I ran a gloves setup and waaaaay prefered it here. I also took LB to test it out, was definitely not as good as FP imo. I still want to test out helm here.

Portal Keeper
Normal : I ran Conflag/IF/LB/Kind/Gloves. This gear setup is the same as High Command. I was on platform at all times, so I ran high cleave, if you are in portal group, you'd probably want FStart/Belt ST type build. FStart could be insane on higher difficulties in portals. I also felt LB didn't get much use here. Flame Patch would be a smarter choice in my opinion. I do not see any reason to not use kind.

Heroic : ran the same as normal, felt good to me. I believe I also ran FP this time, but our logs are gone.

Imonar
Normal : I ran Pyro/IF/Kind/Shard. This gear setup was my crit heavy st build. It was the wrong setup for the encounter, I should've ran FStart/Belt due to lust occuring in 3rd platform. If your group lusts off the bat, shard may be better, but honestly Belt is a huge QOL here. Rune could be used, but I'm not sure how effective you can use it on higher difficulties. I do not see any reason to not use kind.

Heroic : ran a belt st build, felt nicer than shard. Also ate dirt because people blew up mines :<

Kin'Garoth
Normal : I ran FStart/IF/Kind/Shard. Another fight I should've used Fstart/Belt. FStart is by far the best choice for this encounter. You get 10% on boss, and 10% on your add every time it spawns. Belt in the same respec is better there. Also Being able to freely move <30% health is super nice on this boss. Rune imo would not be utilized well here. I don't see any reason to not use Kind.

Heroic : TBD

Varimathras
Normal : I ran Pyro/IF/Kind/Shard. This is the one fight in this entire encounter that I think BRacers/Shard is the go to choice. It's patchwerkish. You lust off the rip. Having the QoL bonus of belt at the end isn't required. Fstart is a good choice if you do go belt, but outside of that it's definitely not required.

Heroic : TBD

Coven
Normal : I ran FStart/Rune/Kindling/Belt. Fstart and belt go together, and belt is probably the better legendary here with movement from add phases. On Normal this boss had nothing exciting and shard probably was a better choice as well as lusting off the rip. Rune might be ok on this fight, but if movement in other phases are the way I expect them to be, I'd keep with IF.

Heroic : TBD

Aggramar
Normal : I ran FStart/Rune/Kindling/Belt. same deal as coven, also Fstart on Adds is nice af.

Heroic : TBD

Argus
Normal : I ran FStart/Rune/Kindling/Belt. Same deal as Aggramar and Coven. Pretty straight forward.

Heroic : TBD

TLDR

So What does this all mean? Honestly it doesn't mean much. Most of my experience was in Normal which was a pushover. And my experience in Heroic was lackluster as I performed poorly. Either by choice of builds, or simply performing poorly.

The purpose of this post is to gather ideas from as many players as we can. I know the sims, I know what they say, but that's not always going to be useful for us. Hopefully we can come up with some good ideas for what type of builds are viable for each style of encounter. Below are my current thoughts:

2 Lust ST Fights : Crit Heavy Shard build, similar to the T21 profile.
Example : Garothi, Imonar, Varithimas. Varitihimas for sure, Garothi/Imonar depend on group.
Example Talents : Pyro/IF or RoP/UM/Kind

ST Fights without 2 lust capability, or poor synching of 2 lusts, or with heavy movement execute phases, or Cleave fights with priority target switching : Crit/Mastery mixed Belt build, similar to the T21 Bracers/Belt profile in the Raidbots report of Fire Legendary Combos
Example : Garothi, Imonar, Varithimas, Felhounds, Kin'garoth, Coven, Aggramar, Argus. Please note that, to me, Bracers/Belt is just insanely well rounded and good just as in Tomb.
Example Talents : Fstart/IF or RoP/UM, maybe LB/Kind

Cleave Fights : Mastery Heavy Gloves Build or Crit Heavy Gloves Build.
Example : High Command, Eonar, Portal Keeper. MAYBE Coven and Aggramar.
Example Talents : Conflag/IF or RoP/LB or FP/Kind

As stated earlier, any and all input is greatly appreciated.

not gonna lie, normal is no benchmark to gauge any dps performance. i did a 1-shot run today (we stacked dogs, dem dps ), obviously shard will outperform anything else when fights don't take longer than roughly 4m.
firestarter really shines when we don't pull with lust (longer >90% health) and bosses have a decent amount of health, which is simply not the case in normal - because normal is a complete and utter joke. wait a while, especially wait for mythic logs and then we'll see where the rubber meets the road in terms of dps-specs. currently we're not in a too favorable spot but that's to be expected when adds die fast.

ps: did run crit/haste build shard/bracer kindling, if - "good enough" spec for anything but mythic, min-maxing for normal or even hc is just a waste of time imho

This wasn't for min/maxing N/H. This was trying to extrapolate core mechanics of the fights for mythic.

Also why is it that crit heavy builds with shard are 'good enough' for anything but mythic?

For which reasons do you say that specifically.

Just a reminder, sims use a 20 second FStart timer based on average Firestart time on Mythic in Tomb, I'm sure we'll edit it if the FStart time is longer for Throne.

My guild only has done normal as of the first week of Antorus. Still going to use my titanforged t20 H pieces till we reach heroic Antorus.

From what I learned in normal mode is this raid is quite movement heavy. Even on normal I felt as if I has moving a lot. I mainly used bracers and belt, it just felt much smoother than bracer and shard. And not all the fights we lust on pull so using shard didn't feel as if I used it fully.

Still need to get to heroic and see what happens.

I like conclusions from your post, unfortunatelly I can't really help you because I'm mostly Mythic raider and don't put much interest into normal / heroic raiding, although can try to point out some things.

According to current sims data we may be switching legendaries a lot, and since they vary a lot we can provide many different things on different encounters according to raid setup you will be having, example:

Legendary setups:
1. Shard - siming highest but fight length may make it way less efficient or your guild may simply need TW later than start
2. Pyrotex - interesting and very good legendary (it's value skyrocket on 2+ targets because combustion provide extra ignite) although sometimes you may wanna delay your combustion to use it certain moment (when adds come, burst is needed) so it may loose value.
3. Darckli's - this legendary is also nice, provides huge amount of damage in huge cone, by wearing this you can help your raid a lot if targets are spread and you don't have many dotters. Decent example are Aggramar adds when they are spread and your raid may be missing that kind of damage
4. Koralons - this legendary isn't that great, would say that it's good if you are facing execute problems < 30% but in this case Shard comes on top aswell. Best situation to use this best is for example KJ, when damage is important sub 30% but mostly it's Movement Heavy part of the boss, in this case you just put Koralons on and /lol at boss.

About talents:
1. Pyro / Conflag / Firestarter - good when you can abuse this 100-90% (like first shield maiden, or P1 dps check on KJ) combo or your guild does not use cd's first min of the fight, else conflag
2. RoP / IF - most mages takes IF because different is not that huge, you are hardly never able to stand in RoP full duration and it makes your highly mobile Fire spec very immobile with this talent so you loose your advantage. MI good if you need > 30 sec, < 1 min burst in fight and it's either closer to 1 min or you cannot stand in rune.
3. Alex / Flame On. Flame On unless you use Darckli's.
4. LvB / UM / FP - FP -> AoE fight, LvB -> priority cleave, UM if you not gonna use any of those for sure.
5. Kindling / CiS / Meteor -> I'd say always go with kindling with new tier bonus unless you have to wait with your combust 2 min because of fight anyways, then if there is AoE CiS if cleave / ST go with meteor

Always remember what's your strong side and try to abuse it to help raid, you may not always be on your Skada but what's important is damage at certain points of the fights. Hardly never full fight damage is what makes good player good.

Legendary setups:
1. Shard - siming highest but fight length may make it way less efficient or your guild may simply need TW later than start
2. Pyrotex - interesting and very good legendary (it's value skyrocket on 2+ targets because combustion provide extra ignite) although sometimes you may wanna delay your combustion to use it certain moment (when adds come, burst is needed) so it may loose value.
3. Darckli's - this legendary is also nice, provides huge amount of damage in huge cone, by wearing this you can help your raid a lot if targets are spread and you don't have many dotters. Decent example are Aggramar adds when they are spread and your raid may be missing that kind of damage
4. Koralons - this legendary isn't that great, would say that it's good if you are facing execute problems < 30% but in this case Shard comes on top aswell. Best situation to use this best is for example KJ, when damage is important sub 30% but mostly it's Movement Heavy part of the boss, in this case you just put Koralons on and /lol at boss.

I agree with everything you said aside from Koralon's. I see most high-tier mages upgrading Koralon as their second lego (bracers obviously being the first).

If shard is superior, and Koralon is last on your list why are so many mages picking Koralon as their second lego upgrade?

Legendary setups:
1. Shard - siming highest but fight length may make it way less efficient or your guild may simply need TW later than start
2. Pyrotex - interesting and very good legendary (it's value skyrocket on 2+ targets because combustion provide extra ignite) although sometimes you may wanna delay your combustion to use it certain moment (when adds come, burst is needed) so it may loose value.
3. Darckli's - this legendary is also nice, provides huge amount of damage in huge cone, by wearing this you can help your raid a lot if targets are spread and you don't have many dotters. Decent example are Aggramar adds when they are spread and your raid may be missing that kind of damage
4. Koralons - this legendary isn't that great, would say that it's good if you are facing execute problems < 30% but in this case Shard comes on top aswell. Best situation to use this best is for example KJ, when damage is important sub 30% but mostly it's Movement Heavy part of the boss, in this case you just put Koralons on and /lol at boss.

I agree with everything you said aside from Koralon's. I see most high-tier mages upgrading Koralon as their second lego (bracers obviously being the first).

If shard is superior, and Koralon is last on your list why are so many mages picking Koralon as their second lego upgrade?

So here's the thing, Koralon's is super efficient QOL upgrade for Progression. As long as it's even remotely competitive people are gunna take it. Also we must, MUST, take into account that the top 100 or so parses on WCL are going to be the best RNG parses available. From what I can tell Shard and Gloves have more variance without T21.

With that said it really depends. A lot of mages may have taken it and upgraded it simply because that was the T20 meta and they're still not in the T21 meta. It could also simply be Belt simply is better on most encounters.

Stating X took something and did well doesn't mean that everyone should take X to do well. Especially this early on.

For example, during the Mythic Tomb Prog Chinese raiders were taking Gloves on many encounters. But gloves was wildly anti-meta then. The were still in the top 10 parses for some encounters (specifically DI and Harj I believe).

The new T21 set opens up a lot more options for fire than T20 did. T20 kindof shafted everyone into a specific style of fire where building ignite was the key to success on almost every encounter. Now with combustion being a much bigger deal, we will see somethings changed. And it may not be leggo choices. It may just be gearing. I wouldn't be surprised to see more mixed stat builds (Crit/Mastery specifically) more like EN.

As me and Potaetoe mentioned Koralon's is very noob-friendly legendary and since legendary upgrades going quite fast (you will have like 3-5 moment you enter mythic) you can go for Koralon's first because:
1. As I mentioned already it's noob friendly so it's hard to mess up (for example mages in my guild have some difficulties utilizing Shard because we have some shamans which sometimes pop bl just to mess up your ring ^^)
2. Also first ~5 mythic bosses won't be dps check at all and will prob be 1-2 shotted so there is no point upgrade Shard because you won't even find the best way to use it. Instead you go with Koralon's just to chill and focus on non failing easy mechanics rather than unimportant stuff as topping dps metters on boss when you kill 2-3 mins before enrage timer.

My break down is about Progress bosses which you spend 20-30 tries on before you kill, most top parses are also in top guilds so they don't care much about early bosses.

Legendary setups:
1. Shard - siming highest but fight length may make it way less efficient or your guild may simply need TW later than start
2. Pyrotex - interesting and very good legendary (it's value skyrocket on 2+ targets because combustion provide extra ignite) although sometimes you may wanna delay your combustion to use it certain moment (when adds come, burst is needed) so it may loose value.
3. Darckli's - this legendary is also nice, provides huge amount of damage in huge cone, by wearing this you can help your raid a lot if targets are spread and you don't have many dotters. Decent example are Aggramar adds when they are spread and your raid may be missing that kind of damage
4. Koralons - this legendary isn't that great, would say that it's good if you are facing execute problems < 30% but in this case Shard comes on top aswell. Best situation to use this best is for example KJ, when damage is important sub 30% but mostly it's Movement Heavy part of the boss, in this case you just put Koralons on and /lol at boss.

I agree with everything you said aside from Koralon's. I see most high-tier mages upgrading Koralon as their second lego (bracers obviously being the first).

If shard is superior, and Koralon is last on your list why are so many mages picking Koralon as their second lego upgrade?

So here's the thing, Koralon's is super efficient QOL upgrade for Progression. As long as it's even remotely competitive people are gunna take it. Also we must, MUST, take into account that the top 100 or so parses on WCL are going to be the best RNG parses available. From what I can tell Shard and Gloves have more variance without T21.

With that said it really depends. A lot of mages may have taken it and upgraded it simply because that was the T20 meta and they're still not in the T21 meta. It could also simply be Belt simply is better on most encounters.

Stating X took something and did well doesn't mean that everyone should take X to do well. Especially this early on.

For example, during the Mythic Tomb Prog Chinese raiders were taking Gloves on many encounters. But gloves was wildly anti-meta then. The were still in the top 10 parses for some encounters (specifically DI and Harj I believe).

The new T21 set opens up a lot more options for fire than T20 did. T20 kindof shafted everyone into a specific style of fire where building ignite was the key to success on almost every encounter. Now with combustion being a much bigger deal, we will see somethings changed. And it may not be leggo choices. It may just be gearing. I wouldn't be surprised to see more mixed stat builds (Crit/Mastery specifically) more like EN.

Ya I definitely agree. Thanks for the additional input. I had also gone with Koralon's as my second upgrade and it definitely is helping with progression and is still useful on many fights in my opinion.

interesting , a simple question, what trinket / legendary combination do you use for aoe fights or cleave ? Iin raid ? For mitics+? I play with helm and kiljaeden burning wish but this last is bad on recent sims

interesting , a simple question, what trinket / legendary combination do you use for aoe fights or cleave ? Iin raid ? For mitics+? I play with helm and kiljaeden burning wish but this last is bad on recent sims

are you even going to attempt to be on topic or are you just going to keep posting that same question in broken english until someone answers

I really don't like the idea of using gloves. Takes the ability to use 4 piece/2 piece away and un-syncs owl trinket from combustion. Those downsides just to play around a crappy bonus I miss actually looking forward to new tier and not having to do math just to see if its a DPS loss, just to realize the only saving grace for it is the fact its higher ilvl. T21 has been so over nerfed it's not even funny at this point. It wasn't good at 12% and just for good measure they nerfed it even more to 10% lol.

I really don't like the idea of using gloves. Takes the ability to use 4 piece/2 piece away and un-syncs owl trinket from combustion. Those downsides just to play around a crappy bonus I miss actually looking forward to new tier and not having to do math just to see if its a DPS loss, just to realize the only saving grace for it is the fact its higher ilvl. T21 has been so over nerfed it's not even funny at this point. It wasn't good at 12% and just for good measure they nerfed it even more to 10% lol.

With gloves your combustion cooldown becomes around 1min, so it doesn't unsync from your owl trinket. And I personally wouldn't dismiss a lego in favor of a pretty underwhelming 2pc/4pc setup.

The 12% down to 10% was most likely to because they altered it to be active for the entire combustion rather than just 14 seconds of the potential 19 seconds combustion with the right traits. So it is basically a common sense change.

I really don't like the idea of using gloves. Takes the ability to use 4 piece/2 piece away and un-syncs owl trinket from combustion. Those downsides just to play around a crappy bonus I miss actually looking forward to new tier and not having to do math just to see if its a DPS loss, just to realize the only saving grace for it is the fact its higher ilvl. T21 has been so over nerfed it's not even funny at this point. It wasn't good at 12% and just for good measure they nerfed it even more to 10% lol.

With gloves your combustion cooldown becomes around 1min, so it doesn't unsync from your owl trinket. And I personally wouldn't dismiss a lego in favor of a pretty underwhelming 2pc/4pc setup.

The 12% down to 10% was most likely to because they altered it to be active for the entire combustion rather than just 14 seconds of the potential 19 seconds combustion with the right traits. So it is basically a common sense change.

If you look at where we stand on DPS, the 12 to 10% nerf makes 0 sense. We can't multi dot spread targets and are very far behind on most bosses at this point.

If you look at where we stand on DPS, the 12 to 10% nerf makes 0 sense. We can't multi dot spread targets and are very far behind on most bosses at this point.

What I was attempting to say is that the relative power level of the 4pc set bonus right now should be about the same as it was before they changed it from 12% to 10%. So it wouldn't be a nerf, it might even have been a buff, at least to the pre-ignited trait.

I'd suspect, if we are getting any buffs, we may see fire 4pc move up to 12% or 12.5% or maybe even 15%. I'd also take the 2pc being changed to 3s, but that's just a wish.

As for the gloves build and playstyle, unless it's cleave it's not a solid choice. And for cleave 2p T20 isn't super strong. It's not weak, just not strong.