Frost Talents, Stat Weights, Racials, Trinkets, FAQ

[Bedacles]

I'm also finding Multistrike>Haste>Vers>Crit>Mastery now that my gear is better. This is at 656 ilevel.

Same here at 646...although Vers is only .1 over Crit so any less crit will probably reverse them again. Mastery seems to be the only real bastard stepchild in the family, which is fine other than making it a little more challenging to be able to play with Arcane.

[Wupie]

Is Mythic Shards of Nothing/Normal runestone still better than Copelands/normal Runestone? And also, i used to macro Copelands into MI, but not sure if there is anything worth lining up Shards use with anything, if anyone has any suggestions.

[Frosted]

Nothing has changed to make the trinket sims non-valid. Look in there for your trinket anwser.

Shards of Nothing is the same CD as Copelands - it'll line up with MI just as well.

[BasicBetch]

It seems to me that Frost will be one of those specs that will be buffed each consecutive tier to keep up with the other two specs, but is that actually good design? Couldn't they just fix the issues by placing a lot more value into our mastery? I actually enjoy playing frost, but I just see it falling to the side as we continue to gear up - especially once we get get bonuses. I feel the only thing carrying Frost in Highmaul that nearly every piece has multi-strike on it. Once we hit BRF where it's all Haste/Mastery/Crit, the great exodus from Frost will begin.

I am by no means saying Frost is weak right now (While it's limited cleave radius is questionable and frustrating); I do feel the spec is in a great place for Highmaul. My observations are just concerning the end game of Blackrock followed by T18. Blizzard operates in slow motion when it comes to adjustments and generally they happen to late - so I like to think ahead.

[Frosted]

There is no reason to worry about frost as we continue into BRF and beyond. It's still very strong going into 730-740ilvl gear.

MS capping with IV isn't a big problem - we'll just glyph / unglyph depending on which gives more DPS. There is no reason that this will suddenly lead to a drop in DPS.

Haste value comes in part from instants. That's why haste is so heavily favored when you are doing non-FoF-IL spam for infinite IV when using TV. Having more instants doesn't devalue haste, and I'm not sure why you are concerned that moving globals from frostbolt -> FoF-IL (which then empower later Frostbolts) is a bad thing.

There is no reforging. How are you imaging we are going to MS cap, haste soft cap, AND shatter cap?

EDIT:

So, I talked to komma about this a bit in IRC. The sims I ran originally were a bit old (scaling ones). With the new Arcane/Fire buffs, Arcane/Fire will outpace Frost by a noticeable margin - but it won't be in BRF (maybe Fire will - those set bonuses are insane). Maybe in T18, depends on how high ilvl that tier mythic gear is.

I still don't think the problem is stat capping (cause they don't cap). Probably just strength of non-MS secondaries, and how certain spells (ice lance) may not benefit from all secondaries like other core spells do for fire/arcane.

However. If we look at the entire raid (i.e. how Frost compares to all other specs), it's still ridiculous strong. Like, top 5 spec strong. 3 of those specs are mages.

[BasicBetch]

I must be interpreting something wrong because I thought Haste does not effect GCDs. Frost already has a lot of Instant Casts which are a 1 second GCD and don't change from that length. Already in our item level, most of my openers on a Crystal are solid instant casts with a another few after it's gone - and even then I'll have to cast 1-2 Frostbolts top (which are probably Heroism infused or when I get the twins trinket...that too) making them nearly GCD capped as well. Most of Frost's damage comes from it's management of CDs and burst rotation. I already feel that most of the time Haste isn't helpful as frost..and that's before we get the set bonuses which make haste even worse.

Anyway...

So far in Highmaul, I keep saying to myself: "Gee...I wish I had the gear for Fire". Its cleave is reliable and more effective than frost's "Oh maybe you'll get splitting ice to work". We'll see that gear in BRF along with amazing set bonuses. On top of that...Arcane is looking mighty strong with the tweaks to Orb and an already superior Single Target.

[Frosted]

I must be interpreting something wrong because I thought Haste does not effect GCDs. Frost already has a lot of Instant Casts which are a 1 second GCD and don't change from that length. Already in our item level, most of my openers on a Crystal are solid instant casts with a another few after it's gone - and even then I'll have to cast 1-2 Frostbolts top (which are probably Heroism infused or when I get the twins trinket...that too) making them nearly GCD capped as well. Most of Frost's damage comes from it's management of CDs and burst rotation. I already feel that most of the time Haste isn't helpful as frost..and that's before we get the set bonuses which make haste even worse.

Anyway...

So far in Highmaul, I keep saying to myself: "Gee...I wish I had the gear for Fire". Its cleave is reliable and more effective than frost's "Oh maybe you'll get splitting ice to work". We'll see that gear in BRF along with amazing set bonuses. On top of that...Arcane is looking mighty strong with the tweaks to Orb and an already superior Single Target.

Haste reduces the GCD to 1.5 / (1.0 + haste). So at 50% haste, your GCD will be 1.5 / (1.0 + 0.5) = 1.5/1.5 = 1s. 1.5s is the base. This is where the "soft cap" of haste comes from - when haste stops reducing the GCD. The GCD cannot be reduced below 1s.

The GCD of Frost is not 1s. it's 1.5 base, then reduced by haste. You are misunderstanding.

No reason to be so fixated on opener - it's not that large a portion of your damage on most fights. Haste is still effecting every global outside of that. Yes, Fire has better cleave, and arcane better ST when patchwerking - but both of those specs are way overtuned with how they scale with ilvl. Frost is arguably also overtuned. If nothing changes from now until end of xpac (it will. we're going to get nerfed), being Frost will keep you as one of the strongest specs in the game.

[Petfood101]

Idk if this has been covered but for MI+TV + shards, do we hold off on using MI+shards for IV so we can get maximum value cuz of extending IV with TV?

[Komma]

Idk if this has been covered but for MI+TV + shards, do we hold off on using MI+shards for IV so we can get maximum value cuz of extending IV with TV?

Q2 ) Should I delay MI for IV?

A2 ) No, for both Glyphed and Unglyphed.

Essentially this.

[Xenost]

What about delaying IV for Orb with TV, it seems obvious that it's the good option, but you can probably use it 10 or 15 sec before Orb goes off CD (with water jet you can get guaranteed 4 sec on IV) ?

[Wilderness]

What about delaying IV for Orb with TV, it seems obvious that it's the good option, but you can probably use it 10 or 15 sec before Orb goes off CD (with water jet you can get guaranteed 4 sec on IV) ?

IV is a 3 min CD. FO is a 1 min CD. FO should be up whenever IV gets off CD. What would the delaying be?

In general, besides syncing FO with PC, you don't want to delay CDs to stack them. The only exception would be if you know the fight length and only get 1 more use out of a CD, then you could delay it to use with another CD since the delay won't cost you another use. That would require a good knowledge of the fight and your usual kill times though, and its a pretty small increase.

[Frosted]

Updated single target talent comparisons to take into account recent improvements to WJ use.

[Naotu]

Updated single target talent comparisons to take into account recent improvements to WJ use.

Sorry I must have missed it, what WJ improvements?

[Frosted]

Just using it smarter. Using it on the pull if you are not using IN + PC, smart use in relation to Fbomb uptimes, and reducing the # of munched FoF procs generated when using WJ.

Essentially just bringing its use closer to what we do in game.

These are the relevant commits:

https://code.google.com/p/simulationcra ... f646d002ed" target="_blank
https://code.google.com/p/simulationcra ... cbde05f3cc" target="_blank

[Xenost]

IV is a 3 min CD. FO is a 1 min CD. FO should be up whenever IV gets off CD. What would the delaying be?

In general, besides syncing FO with PC, you don't want to delay CDs to stack them. The only exception would be if you know the fight length and only get 1 more use out of a CD, then you could delay it to use with another CD since the delay won't cost you another use. That would require a good knowledge of the fight and your usual kill times though, and its a pretty small increase.

Delaying FO is not really something uncommon, while the boss/mob are moving you don't want to FO, you also want to keep FO for burst phase.
On imperator for example FO almost always comes out of CD when Imperator is levitating (between P1 -P2) I don't want to FO there because the boss will me moved to the center of the room.
I also want to keep my orb for the Interval between P2 and P3, so I'll delay it this time too (hopefully IV will come out of CD during that interval or slightly before).

There are a lot of time where FO will be off sync with IV, btw i never delay it too much if I see FO will come off CD in less than 20 s I'll IV right away (with WJ you can at least extand by 4 s and i may use a IL without FOF during movement) .

I think the question can be asked, how much can we delay IV for FO? Is it worth to IV without FO with TV?

[Wilderness]

Delaying FO is not really something uncommon, while the boss/mob are moving you don't want to FO, you also want to keep FO for burst phase.
On imperator for example FO almost always comes out of CD when Imperator is levitating (between P1 -P2) I don't want to FO there because the boss will me moved to the center of the room.
I also want to keep my orb for the Interval between P2 and P3, so I'll delay it this time too (hopefully IV will come out of CD during that interval or slightly before).

There are a lot of time where FO will be off sync with IV, btw i never delay it too much if I see FO will come off CD in less than 20 s I'll IV right away (with WJ you can at least extand by 4 s and i may use a IL without FOF during movement) .

I think the question can be asked, how much can we delay IV for FO? Is it worth to IV without FO with TV?

You can't really ask a general "should this be done" question and then counter with a very specific fight. There are exceptions to every rule, and obviously you should take the fight you're on and its mechanics into account. Most fights might have some boss movement or something that will delay your FO by a little bit of time, but waiting those few seconds for FO to come off CD to use IV later in the fight is unlikely to have an impact on anything.

Now, your more specific question as to how much IV can be delayed to wait for FO is more relevant. That's likely going to be very dependent on how long the fight is. If that delay is going to cost you an IV use later in the fight then its not worth it. If the fight is going to end with your IV CD at 20 or 30 seconds, then you have 2+ mins of time you can delay with, since you aren't getting another IV usage anyway. If the fight ends 15 seconds after your last IV finished, then you have very little time before that delay costs you IV time.

I think you are focusing on FO too much when you have taken TV. Obviously those procs extend the time, but its benefits are not entirely tied to that. You'll still have the guaranteed procs from WJ, as well as whatever procs you happen to get.

[Ogo]

Hey guys!

I have two trinket questions

1) Coagulated Genesaur Blood http://www.wowhead.com/item=110004&bonus=524" target="_blank when it procs (and this might also be suitable for last seconds of Icy Veins). Would you rather use high damaging spells (Ice Nova) or a Frostbolt to milk the increased chance of Brain Freeze proc?
For example: You have 1 charge of Ice Nova and 2sec of IV (or this trinket) left, would you rather use Ice Nova while you had the +30% of getting multistrikes with this high damaging spell, or would you cast a Frostbolt and hope for the increased chance you get from potential Frostbolt multistrikes to proc Brain freeze?

2) The PvP trinket, this simulation is done with set bonuses disabled? How would the 660trinkets compare when you have both 2&4 piece bonus? One procs about each min, and the other has a use effect each min. To get those bonuses while you are spamming ice lances for 10seconds and then frostbolt (with hopefully 20% increased dmg and 20% reduced cast time) would be beneficial. Could it bump them up a spot or two compared to other trinkets? (Copeland for example would only get this synergy each 2nd time)

[Frosted]

1) I honestly am not sure. Probably the frostbolt + FFB (if it procs). Although I would imagine it depends on your MS - lower MS will favor ice nova. Really though, this is a very minor point that probably will not have any significant impact on your DPS.

2) The sims were all done without set bonuses. There are no set bonuses available in the game right now so I have not, and will not until BRF is closer to release, simmed any trinket comparisons with them turned on. it might shift things around, dunno. It could just shift them all up, with their positions staying the same relative to one another.

[Petfood101]

With what gear does RoP become better than MI on single target? :O

[Frosted]

All item levels.

Pre-raid.