Why I find current frost mage boring and how it could be fixed.

[Trog]

I don't know about you guys, but I'm really not enjoying my frost mage anymore. I find myself regularly casting 10+ Frostbolts in a row and in extreme cases 15+ which just sends me to sleep. I know that frost has always been an rng based spec, but this isn't vanilla, I shouldn't be casing Frostbolt all day.

I thought blizz were heading in the right direction at the start of Legion with the addition of Ebonbolt, Glacial Spike, Ray of Frost and Frozen Touch (the original one which instantly gave 2 FoF procs). But throughout Legion they've continuously changed frost to give as little procs as possible and be as non-interactive as possible (maybe not intentional but it sure feels that way); they changed Frozen Touch into a grabage rng passive, nerfed Water Elemental so Waterbolt cannot give procs, buffed Lonely Winter to the point where we no longer use Water Elemental (another 2 guaranteed procs from Water Jet gone), reworked Icy Veins, the core of how frost mage has played for a very long time, into a boring talent which you can't push, and removed a fun and interactive mechanic they accidentally made. Sure it was unintentional, but it was an interesting mechanic which raised the skill ceiling, they should have embraced it and made it part of the spec.

I enjoy a little bit of rng, that's why I've played frost for so long, but in its current state I'm falling asleep. Frost needs bad luck protection similar to fire's. After a certain number or Frostbolts we should get a guaranteed FoF proc. Also, give us something else to press instead of having a passive for EVERY dps talent.

Splitting Ice should be baked into the kit by default like it used to be via the major glyph. This would allow us to pick a fun and interactive talent rather than being forced to take a passive we've had for years. Our other talents also need a buff. Frost Bomb is fun and requires some planning but is under-tuned. Ice Nova was great when we had 2 charges, it gave extra cc and some much needed burst AOE. Ray of Frost is a great addition but does too little damage and is channelled a little too long. Maybe if it were 6 seconds and did a little more damage it would be more viable. Even Mirror Image... It doesn't exactly require much thought, you just press it every 2 minutes, but it's visually awesome and fun to use. Comet Storm, meh. Maybe a visual update would make that more satisfying to use.

We have so many fun talents, yet we're stuck with full passives.

Even Glacial Spike could be baked into our kit by default, it would make sense since our icicles aren't really interactive, plus it would give us a reason to take mastery.

Frost is the easiest it has been in years, the most rng based it has been in years and the most boring it has been in years.

What do you guys think about current frost mage?

[broedrost]

I agree on the boring part but rng-wise fire is alot worse and has been throughout entire Legion

edit: because of bracer procs, that is. If you don't have bracers you can't play fire on ST basically

[Katsumi]

Long Frostbolt streaks can happen, but if you're critcapped and equipped with T19 2pc they rarely do. With T20 4pc the rotation gets a bit more interesting as well. In general I agree with you though. Right now Frost has a lot of undertuned talents, many of which are really fun to play. I'd be the first to play Ray of Frost if it would do acceptable damage.

However, the current LW TW build is also appealing precisely because it is simple. With the amount of mechanics you have to take care of in some encounters it really helps to have an easy rotation to follow. Sure, on Goroth Normal you might fall asleep but I doubt you'll have the same problem on Mistress Mythic.

[TouchyMcfeel]

Honestly I agree with the unessecessary spam of frostbolt just to see some proc happening. That is also why so many top raider stick to 2p t19 4p t20. The NH pieces give us the extra chance to see BF procs. It's a bad design because we shouldn't be relying on past tier to play optimal in current tier. At the same time T19 and T20 sync really well with one an other. Many of the stuff should be baked in as suggested by OP, and the bad luck protection doesn't sound like a bad idea.

Moving to Argus, the t21 frost set looks boring as hell as well not sure if there are any other additional plans for frost moving forward, but time will tell.

[alpacapacino]

The issue with blizzard is that if they make too many changes the possibility that frost will not be viable at all. I remember when fire was really strong, maybe it was because of xavius padding but all i know on ST i was on top of the charts. So pretty sure it wasn't just the padding. See what happened to fire? What made frost so good was because of the double icelance "bug" and when they removed that mechanic frost became what the dev team wanted it to be like.

Frankly I don't want any changes, I don't want them to fuck up frost like they did fire and pretty much destroy the spec. I just hope that i never have to play arcane at any point. That is my least favorite spec.

[Xinder]

The issue with blizzard is that if they make too many changes the possibility that frost will not be viable at all. I remember when fire was really strong, maybe it was because of xavius padding but all i know on ST i was on top of the charts. So pretty sure it wasn't just the padding. See what happened to fire? What made frost so good was because of the double icelance "bug" and when they removed that mechanic frost became what the dev team wanted it to be like.

Frankly I don't want any changes, I don't want them to fuck up frost like they did fire and pretty much destroy the spec. I just hope that i never have to play arcane at any point. That is my least favorite spec.

I think the caveat needs to be added that you topped the charts as fire ONLY if you had bracers. I could never parse well as fire on ST, even when I thought I was doing everything nearly right as I should. Then I'd see everyone who was ahead of me and see they all had bracers. The problem the devs had then was the bracers and lego dependency of fire. It's still that way today.

[Nemo]

The issue with blizzard is that if they make too many changes the possibility that frost will not be viable at all. I remember when fire was really strong, maybe it was because of xavius padding but all i know on ST i was on top of the charts. So pretty sure it wasn't just the padding. See what happened to fire? What made frost so good was because of the double icelance "bug" and when they removed that mechanic frost became what the dev team wanted it to be like.

Frankly I don't want any changes, I don't want them to fuck up frost like they did fire and pretty much destroy the spec. I just hope that i never have to play arcane at any point. That is my least favorite spec. (So much this!)

What he said.

Agree with OP. The problem with frost in my opinion is the poor design of procs:
1. Way too much RNG loaded into the generators - which can result 10+... casts without a single proc.
2. Effect overlaps - which leads to proc munching.

The fix we need is having additional proc generators in our rotation(I know there is waterjet, but the spell is ... meh..."Spam frostbolt to get procs now!" such rotation change. wow.). Having on demand FoF or BF will make the spec much more responsive and it will make the rotation more interesting imo.
And as QoL: If we have FoF active and lancing already "frozen" target would not consume/or refund/ FoF would be pretty nice .

/my 2cents

[Katsumi]

Getting the FoF proc refunded if you land it onto a frozen target is a brilliant idea. It would serve as a bad luck protection and clean up the rotation at the same time.

Another cool idea would be to have uncritical Frostbolts give you a stacking haste buff that's consumed upon landing any form of crit. You'd both increase the damage and shorten the dry spells at the same time (while making it more fun to play). You cold freely adjust the scaling factor. In terms of tuning you could compensate for the mechanic by taking off a little bit of ice lance damage, getting towards a more even damage source distribution overall.

[Trost]

And as QoL: If we have FoF active and lancing already "frozen" target would not consume/or refund/ FoF would be pretty nice .

I really like the idea of this type of mechanic.

My situation is different, I was really bad with the double IL. I really hate it as it was too challenging for me. I know I know you just have to play better blablabla. I like the current TV, and yes I think that spamming FB is boring AF.
It would be great to see choice in the specs like fire currently has.

And for arcane, same opinion as above. I do not want to change for this specs.

[Purplefrost]

this is why i dont play frost and i play fire. you described every gripe i have with the spec. the frost try hards always tell me fire is more rng, but at least when we hit the rng we can control our damage instead of just one proc and then nothing for another 10 casts. fire belt also makes the spec so much more fun to play. frost is just boring to play now with all the talent reworks. i will be happy when it isnt top in 7.3

[Eggochiggo]

When I played fire I had the same crap, bracers don't proc until 2 mins into the fight and i get an under 10% proc rate for the fight and my dps is absolute crap. For frost even if I go through a crappy rng period I'm still mid to top of the pack.

[Nemo]

this is why i dont play frost and i play fire. you described every gripe i have with the spec. the frost try hards always tell me fire is more rng, but at least when we hit the rng we can control our damage instead of just one proc and then nothing for another 10 casts. fire belt also makes the spec so much more fun to play. frost is just boring to play now with all the talent reworks. i will be happy when it isnt top in 7.3

When I played fire I had the same crap, bracers don't proc until 2 mins into the fight and i get an under 10% proc rate for the fight and my dps is absolute crap. For frost even if I go through a crappy rng period I'm still mid to top of the pack.

Basically this ^. RNG is a problem for both specs. Fire is not "more RNG" than frost, however fire is a lot more vulnerable to bad RNG, one bad streak and DPS tanks to the bottom, while as frost even with bad RNG you can still perform at a decent level.

[WhiteVulpine]

Good grief, I just casted 14 frostbolts without a single damn proc. That is super unfortunate and annoying when wearing 4xt20 and 2xt19. Almost felt like t19 isn't worth the hassle. Hard to keep mag bracer stacks up when nothing will proc :-\

[Texhex]

the most i hate about frost (by far) is the chain reaction trait. it is just too short (6s). You often lose it without being able to do something against that. Especially when you have to cast other stuff like blizzard (even with FO instantcast) or ebonbolt, you need to either have a flurry proc ready or be lucky with your next frostbolt cast. Best would be to either extend buff to 10 sec or let it stack from icelances (even non shatter ones) or just remove it completely and bake the damage loss into the spec.

If you consider that more than 40% of our damage comes from IL and the trait increases IL damage by 30% you can see the impact of that trait.

Blizzard always said abilities/talents need to feel fun not punishing.
That trait just feels punishing because you sometimes cant to shit about it and the moment that happens feels just awful.

[Paigey]

I play frost and have the T19 2pc and T20 4pc (Ilevel 922) and do experience the same as the OP where I am casting frostbolts 10+ sometimes almost 20+ without a BF proc and it simply is frustrating to see this especially when I have IV active. I'm not saying it shouldn't happen ever but I think it does happen more often than it should. This is not a reason I would give up on the spec though, I do still enjoy it very much.

[lordhegemon]

Maybe if they added a stacking buff like Enhanced Pyrotechnics where every frostbolt cast which doesn't proc fingers of frost, increases the proc chance for fingers of frost by 5% (or whatever).

[Xinder]

Maybe if they added a stacking buff like Enhanced Pyrotechnics where every frostbolt cast which doesn't proc fingers of frost, increases the proc chance for fingers of frost by 5% (or whatever).

I think something like that or give us the Nighthold 2pc 10% increased chance for BF proc baseline and disable the nighthold set bonuses. IMO.

[Akraen]

I don't know about you guys, but I'm really not enjoying my frost mage anymore. I find myself regularly casting 10+ Frostbolts in a row and in extreme cases 15+ which just sends me to sleep. I know that frost has always been an rng based spec, but this isn't vanilla, I shouldn't be casing Frostbolt all day.

I totally agree with this point, which is why I always wanted frost mage to go in the direction of more haste = more casts = faster pace/twitch response.

I thought blizz were heading in the right direction at the start of Legion with the addition of Ebonbolt, Glacial Spike, Ray of Frost and Frozen Touch (the original one which instantly gave 2 FoF procs). But throughout Legion they've continuously changed frost to give as little procs as possible and be as non-interactive as possible (maybe not intentional but it sure feels that way); they changed Frozen Touch into a grabage rng passive, nerfed Water Elemental so Waterbolt cannot give procs, buffed Lonely Winter to the point where we no longer use Water Elemental (another 2 guaranteed procs from Water Jet gone), reworked Icy Veins, the core of how frost mage has played for a very long time, into a boring talent which you can't push, and removed a fun and interactive mechanic they accidentally made. Sure it was unintentional, but it was an interesting mechanic which raised the skill ceiling, they should have embraced it and made it part of the spec.

I am happy to be rid of the water elemental, personally. I don't like how it ended up simplifying the spec, though. I think lonely winter should add some sort of weaving functionality between flurry and frostbolt, where a non-proc flurry (hard cast) could either amp up the next frostbolt or add some other neat effect. This could stop what I notice to be a "zone out" effect when I play sometime, just whack-a-mole as my eyes glaze over. I'm with you on why it feels this way however I wouldn't want to lose lonely winter.

I enjoy a little bit of rng, that's why I've played frost for so long, but in its current state I'm falling asleep. Frost needs bad luck protection similar to fire's. After a certain number or Frostbolts we should get a guaranteed FoF proc. Also, give us something else to press instead of having a passive for EVERY dps talent.

I'd love to see "Windy winter" be a +haste buff we can for each frostbolt that doesn't result in a FoF proc.

Splitting Ice should be baked into the kit by default like it used to be via the major glyph. This would allow us to pick a fun and interactive talent rather than being forced to take a passive we've had for years.

YES.

Our other talents also need a buff. Frost Bomb is fun and requires some planning but is under-tuned. Ice Nova was great when we had 2 charges, it gave extra cc and some much needed burst AOE. Ray of Frost is a great addition but does too little damage and is channelled a little too long. Maybe if it were 6 seconds and did a little more damage it would be more viable. Even Mirror Image... It doesn't exactly require much thought, you just press it every 2 minutes, but it's visually awesome and fun to use. Comet Storm, meh. Maybe a visual update would make that more satisfying to use.

We have so many fun talents, yet we're stuck with full passives.

I think the solution isn't more active spells, but active buffs that accelerate the twitch of the spec-- perhaps a talent that merges brain freeze with FoF to grant a free Ebonbolt, or simply have one tier of talents offer a choice between shadowfrost with a heal component, frostfire with a DoT component, and spellfrost with an AoE component.

Even Glacial Spike could be baked into our kit by default, it would make sense since our icicles aren't really interactive, plus it would give us a reason to take mastery.

Frost is the easiest it has been in years, the most rng based it has been in years and the most boring it has been in years.

What do you guys think about current frost mage?

I've really enjoyed frost as I've come back from my long break. Skipping WoD gave me time to clear my perspective about what I find fun in the game. I think frost is so much better than it ever was from vanilla through MoP, but it still has some development necessary to resolve some of what you're feeling. The solutions might not be in any specifics either of us outlined, but the goal should be to accelerate the aggressiveness and twitch response that makes the spec fun. If it's not moving fast enough, it's either a lack of baked-in haste or a lack of procs. I hesitate to just put more spells in a rotation as part of our kit because I think that's something other classes offer. What I like about frost is a fast-paced playstyle-- and since my return, even though I'm only ilvl 928 now, I still find myself wanting more haste.

For those of you who remember me... more haste is something I always want - so that's nothing new

[Kij]

Welcome back Akraen! I remember following your haste based build with NT through MoP. I just resubbed back in August and tend to agree with most everything you've said about wanting more of the quick twitch high haste build type of game play.