Another Combustion Trick? 2T17+PC

[Kerrert]

I'm having trouble performing this trick regularly (I did it once when the 4 pc cooperated on the dummy and the stars aligned), but one thing that trips me up often is this:

-Cast FB till have HU
-use IB for Pyro

Now I have a Pyro but no HU

-keep casting FB till HU also appears

Often I am mid cast of a new FB when HU from the last FB appears. I now have both procs and am mid FB cast.
Interrupting FB to drop PC is a dps loss, so I don't do it, but if I wait until my current FB has been cast, I often lose HU (perhaps due to overwriting?) and then I'm fucked for beginning PC ignite. Unbuffed, my haste value is mid 600s currently. I'm sure there is something fundamental or really obvious that I've misunderstood about performing this trick, please help me see it!

Well, that's just the normal behaviour of HU.
If your next spell with HU crits, you'll get another Pyro and thus overwrite the already existing Pyro!,
if you don't crit, you'll lose the HU proc.
In both cases, you won't have a HU proc after the FB.

So, I finally got 2 pc from pugging normals and I've been trying to get this to work out properly, what gear level are you guys seeing your numbers in? I feel like I'm doing something wrong because I'm only hitting ~9k-ish combustions in 675 gear and I feel like I should be getting a bigger number based on some of the stuff poster here. Or are most of your numbers just really really good RNG?

Mid 680's, I guess. And yes, RNG is also a thing. I think we're all posting personal "records" here and they are always the result of good RNG (crits, multistrikes, 4pc procs , other procs etc.). The average is of course lower.

Thanks! So just to clarify: the best course of action then, if casting FB ends badly both ways is indeed to interrupt and drop PC? Still getting used to Fire :/

[ps2dude756]

Dutch's guide covers the best way to set up PC.

- [With Prismatic Crystal talented]: Firstly, make sure both prismatic crystal and combustion are off cooldown, then:
1. Cast Fireball until Heating Up procs.
2. Cast Inferno Blast to turn Heating Up into Pyroblast! proc. (never interrupt a cast for this)
3. If you didn't get a new heating up from the previous fireball (which was still in the air when you cast inferno blast), cast another fireball, otherwise, go to step 4.
4. Cast Prismatic Crystal
5. Cast fireball once if you already have Heating Up, otherwise keep casting it until you get it
6. Cast Pyroblast when you got both Pyroblast! proc and Heating Up proc and there's a fireball in the air flying towards the crystal.
7. Use up any other pyroblast procs you get until you run out of pyroblasts (should be at least 2 pyroblasts unless you got extremely unlucky)
7. Make sure the last pyroblast landed on the boss, and cast Combustion, and then cast inferno blast to spread it to the boss and any additional targets.
8. Continue your normal filler rotation on the prismatic crystal until it times out. Make sure both Blast Wave stacks are used before prismatic crystal runs out.

I've read through the other posts on this thread so sorry if it's been answered and I just overlooked it, but is this still worth attempting even when you don't have haste procs/Time Warp/etc.? Obviously the affect would be greatly reduced, but does it still produce higher numbers than not using this trick? I'm mostly thinking about this for use with Meteor/Kindling, since especially without all that haste the timing can become tricky with PC. I was trying this on N Maidens last night (using Meteor, we weren't using TW on the pull) and felt like my Combusts weren't really any different than normal, but I may have just not been executing it improperly.

[Peter]

I made a simple test on dummies at my Garrison.

Fireball at dummy 1 only to get some ignite.
Fire Blast
Fire Blast.
Then i switch target to dummy 2. The ignite on dummy 2 is not bigger than the ignite on Dummy 1. In other words, i dont think that the ignite spread by Fire Blast stacks.

Am i wrong?

[TLTeo]

You are, use time warp and/or any other significant haste buff and you should see a difference.

[Trustbucket]

I made a simple test on dummies at my Garrison.

Fireball at dummy 1 only to get some ignite.
Fire Blast
Fire Blast.
Then i switch target to dummy 2. The ignite on dummy 2 is not bigger than the ignite on Dummy 1. In other words, i dont think that the ignite spread by Fire Blast stacks.

Am i wrong?

Your ignite is being added to each other more or less, but you have to take into account the damage from IB and the damage lost on ignite from ticks going off when using 2 globals to spread the ignite to the secondary target. You are essentially multiplying your ignite on your main target so if you only use a fireball the damage on ignite multiplied does not outweigh the extra IB on the main target, since the ignite is spread before the IB. If that doesn't make sense I can find a better way of explaining.

[gameorg]

I made a simple test on dummies at my Garrison.

Fireball at dummy 1 only to get some ignite.
Fire Blast
Fire Blast.
Then i switch target to dummy 2. The ignite on dummy 2 is not bigger than the ignite on Dummy 1. In other words, i dont think that the ignite spread by Fire Blast stacks.

Am i wrong?

i made the same test (but full combo, e.g. 3 Pyro) and had about 20% gain on the offtarget (without Bloodlust, but Shards of Nothing active) on my garrison dummies. The more haste, the easier it is to make use of double spread.

[Chev]

There have been a few posts here recently in which people are purely showing off the combustion / ignite ticks they have got from using this trick. There is a post for that already. (http://altered-time.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1323" target="_blank). Unless you are discussing how / why this trick works, please keep "my ignite is bigger than yours" posts to the dedicated thread. Thank you

P.s. I have moved some of the show off posts to the correct thread

[monkeyofdoom]

I understand with the 2-piece that we should still be using IB in the usual way to proc a pyroblast - then saving dumping pyroblasts until IB is almost off cool down.
My question is regarding the 4-piece (only have 3 at the moment so can't practice it). should we be waiting for two fireball crits in a row rather than using IB? If the 4-piece bonus procs (as I'm guessing it will at pull) then the 2nd IB won't be off cool down by the time we've used our string of pyroblasts so won't be able to use the trick? Or have I got the timing wrong?

[Smaiki]

I understand with the 2-piece that we should still be using IB in the usual way to proc a pyroblast - then saving dumping pyroblasts until IB is almost off cool down.
My question is regarding the 4-piece (only have 3 at the moment so can't practice it). should we be waiting for two fireball crits in a row rather than using IB? If the 4-piece bonus procs (as I'm guessing it will at pull) then the 2nd IB won't be off cool down by the time we've used our string of pyroblasts so won't be able to use the trick? Or have I got the timing wrong?

You're right.
If 4pc procs with the first Pyro! using IB, the 2. charge won't be ready again.
Based on experience, a 4pc proc at the pull with the 1. Pyro! is rather rare than common.
2 FB crits in a row is also not that easy to master. Just use IB.

[yodeepballs]

yo guys today i tried one thing:
1) do same pyro 2-3 into 1 target
2) use 1 inferno blast in 1 target
2) use 1 inferno blast in 2 target
3) use combustion in 1 target
And i noticed that ignite ll be higher. that previous method with 2 ib on 1 target then combustion 2 target

[Kasc]

yo guys today i tried one thing:
1) do same pyro 2-3 into 1 target
2) use 1 inferno blast in 1 target
2) use 1 inferno blast in 2 target
3) use combustion in 1 target
And i noticed that ignite ll be higher. that previous method with 2 ib on 1 target then combustion 2 target

How many times did you test it? You'd need a lot of evidence to conclude that this method is better than the OP.

If Ignite follows the DOT spreading mechanics Komma outlined in his LB TC thread then spread Ignites will have their duration extended by 30%. Would this increase the number of ticks added in to target 1's Ignite? Maybe that's what you're seeing.

By my reckoning:

You're spreading Ignite from target 1 to target 2. Target 2's ignite is now going to have +30% duration over target 1's Ignite. When you spread target 2's ignite back to target 1, the added duration means there are more ticks to spread back to target 1 as opposed to double spreading target 1's Ignite.

My understanding of tick compression with Ignite is pretty low so maybe I'm completely off base here.

[Valounette]

Komma, do you know if it's better to open on pull with Fireball spam to attain your first Pyroblast; or the standard Fireball+Infernoblast(with HU)?

i.e. is the value of being able to double spread 100% of the time worth it, on average, according to sims?

[Komma]

If Ignite follows the DOT spreading mechanics Komma outlined in his LB TC thread then spread Ignites will have their duration extended by 30%. Would this increase the number of ticks added in to target 1's Ignite? Maybe that's what you're seeing.

Ignite does not work on pandemic rules. The refresh mechanic is "refresh to (base_ticks + 1) with no tick time reset". It's complicated though.

i.e. is the value of being able to double spread 100% of the time worth it, on average, according to sims?

Sims have not implemented 2 piece spread ignite. There are quite a few technical problems to fix before it can work.

I've seen several players advocate the fireball spam on pull back before 6.1, due to 1.0 RPPM allowing for a high chance of proccing 4T17 on your first Pyroblast proc. With the nerf to 0.7 RPPM this is no longer the case.

[Hinfa]

This is an amazing thread, thanks everyone.

I am having a dispute with one of my teammates who is not using the 2T17 trick on fights like Iron Maiden / Blast Furnace even though he has a 2-piece bonus (not 4-piece though). He recently specced into Arcane/Fire, Arcane being main (so all the gear is socketed/chanted for mastery), and he has very little crit on his gear (27% raidbuffed). His argument is that he is forced to use at least one charge of IB to boost his ignite, since his low crit score makes it difficult to pull off 2 (not even talking about 3) pyros one after another. And because he uses one of his IBs for the ignite boost, he does not have the second charge for the double-spread.

Do you think his arguments are reasonable, or is there a DPS loss?

[Trylldom]

This trick is simply amazing: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/DY ... e&source=1" target="_blank

Ignite peak at 49,5k on pull, even without 4pc proc. Thanks for sharing it.

[TheHeretic91]

Just to recap:

This trick is situationally worth it without 4pc and always worth it with 4pc?

[Komma]

Just to recap:

This trick is situationally worth it without 4pc and always worth it with 4pc?

How does this have anything to do with 4T17 at all?

[nico]

If 4pc procs from the first IB, is it better to dump them, cast Meteor, then cast what I have left (usually no free Pyros; se below) and spread? Or should I just combust the main target after the Meteor?
If the fireball that comes with the first IB doesn't crit, I'll end up with only a HU (no P!) after the third free Pyro, leaving me with nothing to cast after the Meteor except FB.
If it DOES crit, I end up with a P! left after the 4pc proc is over, which fits fine with the cd of IB. When it doesn't, however, I feel like the Ignite is dropping pretty fast in the last 1-2 seconds before I can spread.

[Searix]

So i've been doing this with a focus macro where i focus the target next to the crystal, and after 2x IB i use a target=focus combustion macro, but it feels really clunky, especially on fights where the target i have focused isnt next to where im putting down crystal (boss going up on maidens, or going on boat as fire).

Any ideas? Get faster at focusing new targets? Is there a /focus mouseover macro i should be using?

[TheHolyChicken]

So i've been doing this with a focus macro where i focus the target next to the crystal, and after 2x IB i use a target=focus combustion macro, but it feels really clunky, especially on fights where the target i have focused isnt next to where im putting down crystal (boss going up on maidens, or going on boat as fire).

Any ideas? Get faster at focusing new targets? Is there a /focus mouseover macro i should be using?

Maybe you could macro Prismatic Crystal so it resets focus to your current target, so that when you combust it should be correct? Could be really smooth.