[Discussion] Patch 6.2 PTR

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Smaiki
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Re: [PTR] 6.2 PTR Tier and Trinket Testing

Unread postby Smaiki Mon May 18, 2015 6:33 pm

Hello,

do you have a clue when we can sim with the new trinkets? Or are they already implemented?

EDIT; Ok, I just looked at the new T18 profiles which already use the new trinkets. So, I assume that they are implemented. ;)

By the way, did anyone hear something about http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=124232/intu ... &bonus=567" target="_blank ? It sims quite crazy with its over-budget stats for all specs up to 10k above other trinkets for fire. Mastery --> Spirit?

Thx & Greetz.

Mod Edit: Moved to Discussion thread. Please keep the testing thread clean of discussion. The trinket has already been discussed a few posts up in this thread.
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Komma
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Re: [Discussion] Patch 6.2 PTR

Unread postby Komma Mon May 18, 2015 8:13 pm

With the 2T18 Frost bonus being a 40% increase to Brain Freeze (additive), we're once again back to ignoring Ice Lances, even with a 20% buff to Fingers of Frost. This is partially due to the hefty amounts of Mastery from T18M gear.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing" target="_blank

The 20% buff to FoF isn't live on PTR anyway, so I guess it hardly matters. Obviously, this doesn't apply if you're using Frost Bomb or Thermal Void. That said, this change has silly implications for the tier bonuses. We'll likely want to spam Water Bolt to interrupt Water Jet as soon as it starts channeling, right after it grants us the 1 charge of Brain Freeze.
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DeaThShiNoBi
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Re: [Discussion] Patch 6.2 PTR

Unread postby DeaThShiNoBi Tue May 19, 2015 11:21 am

Why is nobody talking about Overpowered and Unstable Magic with the Archimonde Arcane trinket? I've seen plenty of complaints that the Archimonde class trinket can't be fully utilized because you either have to spend too much Arcane Power time doing other stuff (Supernova and Arcane Missiles) or you run out of mana so ridiculously quickly that you don't get much benefit from the trinket. Going for Overpowered seems like a natural choice. Without the Crystal, Supernova is a lot less impressive, and Unstable Magic gets a lot better when we're casting much higher damage Arcane Blasts at a much faster rate. I did a very (very, very) quick and dirty simulation using Frosted's starting point Arcane profile on page 5 of this thread and UM_RoP_OP outperformed SN_RoP_PC by a substantial amount. Perhaps a more experienced theorycrafter than I should investigate?

Edit: At only 4.4% of the total damage dealt, Unstable Magic underperformed compared to my expectation (Supernova is typically much higher than that, for instance, but you don't have to waste globals on Unstable Magic), but I ran another sim testing Nether Tempest and Supernova with Overpowered and Unstable Magic was still the highest dps. Supernova was only a little behind Unstable Magic, but Nether Tempest lagged significantly behind both of them. Notably, SN_RoP_OP performed better than SN_RoP_PC. Overpowered seems to be a very real thing with the Archimonde trinket, methinks. Another thing that I'm noticing is that the haste scaling with UM_RoP_OP + Archimonde trinket + Mark of Doom trinket is absolutely off the charts (higher than Int and by far higher than Mastery). I had expected haste to be much better with Archimonde trinket + OP (and Doom trinket I figure), but to be honest, this result was far beyond what I had expected, and makes me think that I could have messed up the sims in some way.
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Frosted
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Re: [Discussion] Patch 6.2 PTR

Unread postby Frosted Tue May 19, 2015 6:42 pm

I'll look into it in a bit. But I doubt UM + OP are going to be very valuable vs SN/PC when you take the legendary into account.
DeaThShiNoBi
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Re: [Discussion] Patch 6.2 PTR

Unread postby DeaThShiNoBi Tue May 19, 2015 7:58 pm

I'll look into it in a bit. But I doubt UM + OP are going to be very valuable vs SN/PC when you take the legendary into account.
I considered that, but I actually doubt that's the case. For one, if the Legendary ring was really that important, then very few classes will be viable because only a handful of classes can really take advantage of the burst so well, and that would be a sad, sad world. Further, consider that it's awkward to align your cooldowns with the ring. It may be worth it, sure, but remember that if you have to delay PC by 30 seconds then you're losing 33% of its value by simply waiting (that's the same for unglyphed Arcane power, too). At any rate, we're going to have to actually play with the Legendary ring before we can see how this plays out, and I think it's at least best to explore our options, yes?
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Frosted
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Re: [Discussion] Patch 6.2 PTR

Unread postby Frosted Tue May 19, 2015 8:43 pm

I have the same results without the legendary. With it, SN/PC is higher.

Yes, the legendary is very important. It's a gigantic DPS increase, and having 2xSN exploding on PC / primary target + the 30% additional damage on your AB/AMs during the ring is huge.

UM/OP are essentially worth nothing for the legendary. OP literally does nothing for you, and UM is unreliable at best vs. the consistent damage from 2xSN into PC. Even when using these, you want to delay everything for the ring. You want to delay-sync your burns to the ring, so it's not like the lost value for delaying PC is gained by having more burn phases with OP.
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Komma
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Re: [Discussion] Patch 6.2 PTR

Unread postby Komma Tue May 19, 2015 9:07 pm

I considered that, but I actually doubt that's the case. For one, if the Legendary ring was really that important, then very few classes will be viable because only a handful of classes can really take advantage of the burst so well, and that would be a sad, sad world. Further, consider that it's awkward to align your cooldowns with the ring. It may be worth it, sure, but remember that if you have to delay PC by 30 seconds then you're losing 33% of its value by simply waiting (that's the same for unglyphed Arcane power, too). At any rate, we're going to have to actually play with the Legendary ring before we can see how this plays out, and I think it's at least best to explore our options, yes?
The legendary ring really is -that- important. Losing 33% of AP/PC usage isn't too bad when you consider how the ring is at least 56.25% multiplier for that duration. Most classes are estimating 10% or more overall gains, and it really does create rather large class imbalances. Think about BM hunters who store 15 seconds of damage from stampede with it. That's pretty hard to compare to!

On a side note, if I remember correctly, UM/OP was rather powerful with earlier PTR tuning when the Arcane trinket was a bit stronger. It doesn't hold a massive lead against the competing trinkets now. This also means that UM isn't as strong for bursting during the ring, and instead has stronger regular throughput.
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DeaThShiNoBi
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Re: [Discussion] Patch 6.2 PTR

Unread postby DeaThShiNoBi Tue May 19, 2015 10:30 pm

I understand your guys' points. I really do hold hope in my heart that they'll nerf and/or change the ring because of the extreme class imbalance it inevitably brings with it. Arcane mages are in good shape because of Arcane Power, Supernova, and Crystal, but I main a Shadow Priest and they have... close to nothing for the ring. I suspect people will be taking Power Infusion, but it's not very good, Shadowfiend does incredibly little damage, and a couple Devouring Plagues aren't going to make up for their burst deficiency.
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Frosted
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Re: [Discussion] Patch 6.2 PTR

Unread postby Frosted Tue May 19, 2015 10:39 pm

I understand your guys' points. I really do hold hope in my heart that they'll nerf and/or change the ring because of the extreme class imbalance it inevitably brings with it. Arcane mages are in good shape because of Arcane Power, Supernova, and Crystal, but I main a Shadow Priest and they have... close to nothing for the ring. I suspect people will be taking Power Infusion, but it's not very good, Shadowfiend does incredibly little damage, and a couple Devouring Plagues aren't going to make up for their burst deficiency.
It really is kind of silly, yeah. It introduces a lot of imbalance on both an intraclass level (specs, talents) and an interclass one. We'll see though. I'm hoping it doesn't just flat out remove some classes from competitiveness, that would just be ridiculous.

As it stands, I think every class has spoken out against the rings design for the potential problems it brings - nobody likes it.
DeaThShiNoBi
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Re: [Discussion] Patch 6.2 PTR

Unread postby DeaThShiNoBi Tue May 19, 2015 10:52 pm

I understand your guys' points. I really do hold hope in my heart that they'll nerf and/or change the ring because of the extreme class imbalance it inevitably brings with it. Arcane mages are in good shape because of Arcane Power, Supernova, and Crystal, but I main a Shadow Priest and they have... close to nothing for the ring. I suspect people will be taking Power Infusion, but it's not very good, Shadowfiend does incredibly little damage, and a couple Devouring Plagues aren't going to make up for their burst deficiency.
It really is kind of silly, yeah. It introduces a lot of imbalance on both an intraclass level (specs, talents) and an interclass one. We'll see though. I'm hoping it doesn't just flat out remove some classes from competitiveness, that would just be ridiculous.

As it stands, I think every class has spoken out against the rings design for the potential problems it brings - nobody likes it.
Guilds pushing for world first aren't going to take classes that don't burst extremely well during the ring. If this goes into live as is, world first Mythic Archimonde is probably going to have 12 Arcane Mages and BM Hunters. That's not my guild, I'll get to play regardless, but I don't enjoy being gimped.
Mortiferus
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Re: [Discussion] Patch 6.2 PTR

Unread postby Mortiferus Wed May 20, 2015 12:07 am

Latest PTR build looks like it further buffs FoF-IL, changes Frost Mastery to now impact Water Jet, and revamps the Arcane 2PC to a be a bit more manageable but perhaps no less silly:

Item - Mage T18 Arcane 2P Bonus
Your Arcane Blast has a 40% chance to trigger Presence of Mind without triggering its cooldown.


I would surmise the Frost changes are designed with the intent of not making us forego FoF procs and/or cancel Water Jet prematurely.
Last edited by Mortiferus on Wed May 20, 2015 12:51 am, edited 2 times in total.
Mortiferus
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Re: [Discussion] Patch 6.2 PTR

Unread postby Mortiferus Wed May 20, 2015 12:09 am

Guilds pushing for world first aren't going to take classes that don't burst extremely well during the ring. If this goes into live as is, world first Mythic Archimonde is probably going to have 12 Arcane Mages and BM Hunters. That's not my guild, I'll get to play regardless, but I don't enjoy being gimped.
I could be wrong, but World First Mythic Archimonde kill will almost certainly happen long before anyone has the Legendary Ring. We're not starting the Tier with it, after all.
Phuzzi
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New 6.2 Arcane 2 piece

Unread postby Phuzzi Wed May 20, 2015 6:45 am

I've been messing around with the new 2 piece that gives a 40 percent chance for arcane blast to trigger presence of mind. I've found that if you get "lucky" with multiple procs in a row your mana just drops so quick even when building charges. I'm happy they fixed the 2 piece before this but I'm not sure about this one.

Mod Edit: Merged to PTR discussion thread.
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Frosted
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Re: [Discussion] Patch 6.2 PTR

Unread postby Frosted Wed May 20, 2015 7:21 am

Prophecy of Fear is now triggered by every Arcane Missile impact.
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Komma
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Re: [Discussion] Patch 6.2 PTR

Unread postby Komma Wed May 20, 2015 7:32 am

Prophecy of Fear is now triggered by every Arcane Missile impact.
Meteor, Arcane Orb, Comet Storm now also work on it.
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Festen
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Re: [Discussion] Patch 6.2 PTR

Unread postby Festen Wed May 20, 2015 12:20 pm

Hey guys,
Are these frost buff enough to make frost ahead of fire/arcane?
Tilo
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Re: [Discussion] Patch 6.2 PTR

Unread postby Tilo Wed May 20, 2015 4:57 pm

Item - Mage T18 Arcane 2P Bonus
Your Arcane Blast has a 40% chance to trigger Presence of Mind without triggering its cooldown

Just went over to the PTR and tested the set bonuses and it is either buggy or the buff sometimes activates 3-4 times in a row. During those times you either get some pretty sick prismatic crystal bursts, or you totally fail during the conserve phase. If this happens during the conserve phase, which it does so fairly regularly, you are quickly sitting close to 80% mana (due to lack of cast-time regen I assume). So, aside from those 12 seconds during the crystal, the 2 piece is a wash. Also, during burn phases, with the class trinket equipped, it wasn't uncommon to be sitting close to 25% mana fairly quickly.

Hopefully this is a final step in the wrong direction before they reevaluate the set bonus being centered around presence of mind. The name of the spell now conjures a clear sense of irony.
Last edited by Tilo on Wed May 20, 2015 6:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
DeaThShiNoBi
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Re: [Discussion] Patch 6.2 PTR

Unread postby DeaThShiNoBi Wed May 20, 2015 5:48 pm

Guilds pushing for world first aren't going to take classes that don't burst extremely well during the ring. If this goes into live as is, world first Mythic Archimonde is probably going to have 12 Arcane Mages and BM Hunters. That's not my guild, I'll get to play regardless, but I don't enjoy being gimped.
I could be wrong, but World First Mythic Archimonde kill will almost certainly happen long before anyone has the Legendary Ring. We're not starting the Tier with it, after all.
You are most likely correct, but I thought perhaps they might design certain encounters based on the assumption that everyone has legendary ring. Who knows.
DeaThShiNoBi
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Re: [Discussion] Patch 6.2 PTR

Unread postby DeaThShiNoBi Wed May 20, 2015 5:55 pm

Item - Mage T18 Arcane 2P Bonus
Your Arcane Blast has a 40% chance to trigger Presence of Mind without triggering its cooldown

Just went over to the PTR and tested the set bonuses and it is either buggy or the buff sometimes activates 3-4 times in a row. During those times you either get some pretty sick prismatic crystal bursts, or you totally fail during the conserve phase. If this happens during the conserve phase, which it does so fairly regularly, you are quickly sitting close to 80% mana (due to lack of cast-time regen I assume). So, aside from those 12 seconds during the crystal, the 2 piece is a wash. Also, during burn phases, with the class trinket equipped, it wasn't uncommon to be sitting close to 25% mana fairly quickly.

Hopefully this is a final step in the wrong direction before they reevaluate the set bonus being centered around presence of mind. The name of the spell now comes with a clear sense of irony.
Perhaps Presence of Mind can remove the mana cost of the spell it modifies. I think if they did this, they would have to lower the chance for Arcane Blast to proc PoM, but it would fix our issues, yes?
Mortiferus
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Re: [Discussion] Patch 6.2 PTR

Unread postby Mortiferus Wed May 20, 2015 6:21 pm

Item - Mage T18 Arcane 2P Bonus
Your Arcane Blast has a 40% chance to trigger Presence of Mind without triggering its cooldown

Just went over to the PTR and tested the set bonuses and it is either buggy or the buff sometimes activates 3-4 times in a row. During those times you either get some pretty sick prismatic crystal bursts, or you totally fail during the conserve phase. If this happens during the conserve phase, which it does so fairly regularly, you are quickly sitting close to 80% mana (due to lack of cast-time regen I assume). So, aside from those 12 seconds during the crystal, the 2 piece is a wash. Also, during burn phases, with the class trinket equipped, it wasn't uncommon to be sitting close to 25% mana fairly quickly.

Hopefully this is a final step in the wrong direction before they reevaluate the set bonus being centered around presence of mind. The name of the spell now comes with a clear sense of irony.
Perhaps Presence of Mind can remove the mana cost of the spell it modifies. I think if they did this, they would have to lower the chance for Arcane Blast to proc PoM, but it would fix our issues, yes?
I like that. The 2PC could have a % chance to proc PoM for free (or reset the CD), and the 4PC could cause PoM to also reduce your next spell cast cost by 100%. Basically turn it into an "instant and free" proc. I doubt it's even on the table, but I would certainly enjoy that more than the current.

My opinion on the new 2PC, as it stands, is that it removes the operational headache of having to spam PoM but not the rotational nightmare. That said, some quick notes—it can indeed proc even if PoM is already on CD, and I too was sometimes able to chain several instant-cast ABs in a row (likely from luck).

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