[SimC] WoD Frost SimC Disucssion

[Komma]

If anyone has input on how they think robomage should play with 14 sec Water Jet, do tell. 4T18 APL needs work!

[hawk9378]

This has been in no way tested, it's just a question, but with T18 and the assumption of near unlimited procs of FoF and brain freeze, would the thunderlord enchant be more beneficial than frostwolf since we really don't need the extra procs from multistrike

[recom]

If anyone has input on how they think robomage should play with 14 sec Water Jet, do tell. 4T18 APL needs work!

I've been trying the rotation on the PTR since yesterday and I think I'm starting to get the feel of how to minimize munching. I'll lay out my experience and thought process in plain text as I don't know how to turn that into APL code so I hope this is not totally useless to you.

During WJ you'll want to weave FB+FoF-IL as much a possible while not munching FoF or BF procs. You'll also want to have as many FoF stacks as possible (and BF if possible) when WJ fades. If done correctly, between FoF, BF, IN, FO and PC, you'll have plenty to do during the downtime.

Things I found to be working pretty well :
- since WF generates 1 BF stack and you'll be casting a lot of FB, you want to dump all your BF stacks before casting WJ
- you don't necessarily need to dump all your FoF stacks since you can carry them for the whole duration of WJ and delaying doesn't have any upside
- You want to quickly build 2 to 3 FoF stacks by casting a few FB; I found that 2 is better than 3 since FB sometimes generates 2 FoF stacks and BF also can proc FoF, so staying at 2 gives you a better chance at not munching them
- when at 2FoF stacks, start weaving FB+FoF-IL
- Ignore BF stacks as long as possible, you always get 1 when casting WJ so keep it until there's only a few seconds left, the goal is to fish for a second proc that will refresh the duration but don't let the buff fade
- if you hit 2 stacks of BF, use 1 right after a FB+FoF-IL and keep the other to repeat the previous step
- if you hit 4 FoF stacks, throw 2 FoF-IL without weaving FB to get down to 2 stacks
- when there is only a few seconds left of WJ, cast FB to get up to 4 FoF stacks
- when WJ fades, proceed to dump everything

As a priority list (order and duration might not be optimal though), this is only true DURING WJ :
- If FoF stacks = 4, cast IL
- If BF duration < 3 sec and BF stacks = 2, cast FFB
- If BF duration < 2 sec and BF stacks = 1, cast FFB
- If BF stacks = 2 and FoF stacks =< 3, cast FFB
- If FoF stacks < 4 and WJ duration < 2 sec, cast FB
- If FoF stacks = 3 and WJ duration > 4 sec, cast IL
- if FoF stacks =< 2, cast FB

I'll continue iterating on this even though it's pretty hard with 250ms.. Hope this helps anyway.

[Daiceman]

I would think you would want to put in:

If BF stacks = 2, cast FFB

And remove the current #2

Otherwise you could munch a FFB

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Something i've been thinking about is if you were to go Ice Nova and had 4 FoF procs, you could theoretically spend the entire PC consuming procs, and still have 1 ice lance proc left over: PC-IN-F-IL-F-IL-F-IL-IN

In this situation, would it be better to cast a F-IL at the end instead of a the 2nd IN? In my experience, with latency and Travel time, you could get 1 cast in before or after the IN, but not 2

---

Finally, in the Sims is the Welly attacking the PC? I tested i on live, and the elemental can target the PC and eventually does target the PC, but only after like 3-4 casts in, so we'll want to command it to attack the PC right away.

[Komma]

Pushed a rather overcomplicated APL patch for Frost Mages. Should be included in the next official release (6.2.0-2). Improves water jet usage, prevents long duration water jet from locking other abilities out for too long, and raises shatterlance benefit to nearly 100% of all Ice Lances.

Finally, in the Sims is the Welly attacking the PC? I tested i on live, and the elemental can target the PC and eventually does target the PC, but only after like 3-4 casts in, so we'll want to command it to attack the PC right away.

Yes, all pets/guardians are attacking PC.

[Woke]

Mod edit: Merged into SimC dev thread.

Anyway for the AoE and the add waves every 45 seconds we can get the trinkets changed on the profiles from Tome + Prophecy of Fear to Gaze + Prophecy of Fear?

I think that may be a better setup for these two scenarios, or at least worth testing out. Also, you would need to change the rotation to not frostbolt/ice lance weave whenever you obtain a fingers of frost. You still do the water jet frostbolt generation rotation though.

Just curious what this would look like. I'd do it myself, but I am not very good with code.

[Komma]

Anyway for the AoE and the add waves every 45 seconds we can get the trinkets changed on the profiles from Tome + Prophecy of Fear to Gaze + Prophecy of Fear?

I think that may be a better setup for these two scenarios, or at least worth testing out. Also, you would need to change the rotation to not frostbolt/ice lance weave whenever you obtain a fingers of frost. You still do the water jet frostbolt generation rotation though.

Just curious what this would look like. I'd do it myself, but I am not very good with code.

Huh. I thought this was done already, but apparently not. Let me fix that.

[Zenith]

Have you guys tried to simulate the 4 target fight w/o Blizzard? I remember someone mentioning the 3 target sims were much higher than 4 targets for frost because Blizzard is in the rotation at 4 targets.

[Komma]

We don't put too much time into optimizing AOE sims. For that problem specifically, the issue is that the number of targets at which you should stop using single target abilities and switch to Blizzard/FO is heavily dependent on talents, trinkets, and other factors. If you have a list of all the different thresholds for all the different talent combos with and without class trinket, feel free to share it so we can fix things.

[Woke]

Anyway for the AoE and the add waves every 45 seconds we can get the trinkets changed on the profiles from Tome + Prophecy of Fear to Gaze + Prophecy of Fear?

I think that may be a better setup for these two scenarios, or at least worth testing out. Also, you would need to change the rotation to not frostbolt/ice lance weave whenever you obtain a fingers of frost. You still do the water jet frostbolt generation rotation though.

Just curious what this would look like. I'd do it myself, but I am not very good with code.

Huh. I thought this was done already, but apparently not. Let me fix that.

Thanks for moving this to the correct thread. My apologies on posing the question in the wrong place. It may have already been done, I just noticed on simulationcraft.org that the simulations for frost did not indicate the trinket changes, so therefore, they were not giving correct numbers

[Komma]

Thanks for moving this to the correct thread. My apologies on posing the question in the wrong place. It may have already been done, I just noticed on simulationcraft.org that the simulations for frost did not indicate the trinket changes, so therefore, they were not giving correct numbers

Fixed! Look for it tomorrow, or in a few days. I don't remember how often the scheduled AOE sims are run.

[Woke]

Thanks for moving this to the correct thread. My apologies on posing the question in the wrong place. It may have already been done, I just noticed on simulationcraft.org that the simulations for frost did not indicate the trinket changes, so therefore, they were not giving correct numbers

Fixed! Look for it tomorrow, or in a few days. I don't remember how often the scheduled AOE sims are run.

Sounds great. I am assuming by AOE sims you also included the Add waves one?

[Breaktheice]

Hey Komma,

I've put this in the other thread but I'll ask here too...

Have you noticed Frost potentially being better off without glyphed IV when it runs with Frost Bomb, as in such a case where a Haste build tends to pull ahead of a Multistrike one? I was tinkering around with Simcraft and for some reason, with some talent combos Frost Bomb + T6 talent + T7 talent + unglyphed IV + Haste gems/enchants > the traditional glyphed IV + MS gems/enchants.

[Komma]

Sounds great. I am assuming by AOE sims you also included the Add waves one?

Yes.

Have you noticed Frost potentially being better off without glyphed IV when it runs with Frost Bomb, as in such a case where a Haste build tends to pull ahead of a Multistrike one? I was tinkering around with Simcraft and for some reason, with some talent combos Frost Bomb + T6 talent + T7 talent + unglyphed IV + Haste gems/enchants > the traditional glyphed IV + MS gems/enchants.

No, but it sounds plausible. T18 with Frost Bomb seems to really like haste. I don't know why.

[Woke]

Have you noticed Frost potentially being better off without glyphed IV when it runs with Frost Bomb, as in such a case where a Haste build tends to pull ahead of a Multistrike one? I was tinkering around with Simcraft and for some reason, with some talent combos Frost Bomb + T6 talent + T7 talent + unglyphed IV + Haste gems/enchants > the traditional glyphed IV + MS gems/enchants.

No, but it sounds plausible. T18 with Frost Bomb seems to really like haste. I don't know why.

I think the idea is that with T18 4 set, you are able to completely guarantee 4+ FoF ice lances with Frost Bomb uses. Coupled with the fact that you take TV and Frost Bomb on add centric/focused fights, and these scenarios favor stats like haste over the rest.[/quote]

[Breaktheice]

Sounds great. I am assuming by AOE sims you also included the Add waves one?

Yes.

Have you noticed Frost potentially being better off without glyphed IV when it runs with Frost Bomb, as in such a case where a Haste build tends to pull ahead of a Multistrike one? I was tinkering around with Simcraft and for some reason, with some talent combos Frost Bomb + T6 talent + T7 talent + unglyphed IV + Haste gems/enchants > the traditional glyphed IV + MS gems/enchants.

No, but it sounds plausible. T18 with Frost Bomb seems to really like haste. I don't know why.

It's interesting since Arcane with 4 PC favors Haste as well. That said 4 PC + Archi trinket + Frost Bomb is a PITA to use

[waltert111]

Why does Frosted's guide in this section have tome+gaze as BiS and simC 4PT18Mythic profile has prophecy+tome?

[Komma]

https://code.google.com/p/simulationcra ... M.simc#136" target="_blank

trinket2=unblinking_gaze_of_sethe,id=124229,bonus_id=567

?

[waltert111]

Ok then. I guess my database is outdated? I installed the newest version dated 7/13/15 but it didn't change the profiles? Should I have removed the old version first?

[Komma]

Yeah, the release version is probably outdated. I don't think there will be a new official release for a while though.

You shouldn't need to remove old versions.