On an advanced item level (I suggest 560+) and given that you'd play your spec flawlessly - which spec allows currently the most DSP as a Mage?
Frost, Fire or Arcane?
What do real-encounter combat logs tell us?
http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/pla ... cane_Mage/" target="_blank
http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/pla ... Fire_Mage/" target="_blank
http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/pla ... rost_Mage/" target="_blank
http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Sco ... 0/default/" target="_blank
http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Sco ... 0/default/" target="_blank
http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Sco ... 0/default/" target="_blank
http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Sco ... 0/default/" target="_blank
What do logs from training dummy sessions tell us?
What do simulations tell us?
http://www.noxxic.com/wow/dps-rankings/realistic#BiS" target="_blank
http://www.noxxic.com/wow/dps-rankings/maximum#BiS" target="_blank
What is your experience?
Is the damage reliable or random?
Is the damage more burst based or rather constant?
Is a spec very difficult in current content - i.e. because of (movement) restrictions, missing utility, or something?
I'd love to find some answers together with you.
Frost/Fire/Arcane - Which spec allows currently the most DPS
Re: Frost/Fire/Arcane - Which spec allows currently the most
Hey
Noxxic is not a very accurate source of information, so I'd discourage using it. There's very big disparity between parse extremes because the specs with the higher AoE damage are currently doing "better" on overall dps. This is amplified by the short fight duration that we tend to have, and the fact that most people ranking are >585 item level.
If you look at your item level, I'd argue that the specs are quite equal in terms of performance at your item level. All three specs are quite reliable, but fire and arcane are more burst based, and thus subject to a higher amount of RNG swings. Arcane is arguably very difficult to play in terms of movement, and fire is probably the easiest due to Scorch. However it primarily depends on how well you play it, not on the spec itself.
Here at Altered Time we very much oppose stamping one spec as 'best' or 'worst', all three work well.
Kver
Noxxic is not a very accurate source of information, so I'd discourage using it. There's very big disparity between parse extremes because the specs with the higher AoE damage are currently doing "better" on overall dps. This is amplified by the short fight duration that we tend to have, and the fact that most people ranking are >585 item level.
If you look at your item level, I'd argue that the specs are quite equal in terms of performance at your item level. All three specs are quite reliable, but fire and arcane are more burst based, and thus subject to a higher amount of RNG swings. Arcane is arguably very difficult to play in terms of movement, and fire is probably the easiest due to Scorch. However it primarily depends on how well you play it, not on the spec itself.
Here at Altered Time we very much oppose stamping one spec as 'best' or 'worst', all three work well.
Kver
Re: Frost/Fire/Arcane - Which spec allows currently the most
What do real-encounter combat logs tell us?
A lot, but raidbots and rankings are not that. You need to check boss kill times, damage on necessary targets, and weigh how much is padding versus effective DPS. It doesn't change the general Arcane>Fire>Frost order, but it does bring it more into a level playing field to take it all with perspective.
What do logs from training dummy sessions tell us?
ET%s, damage%s, tooltip information, and other helpful things but not a real picture of any actual boss encounter. Be sure to grab the spell haste buff from a shadow priest, hunter, or moonkin friend when testing.
What do simulations tell us?
Same as dummy sessions, but a bit more advanced. You can compare marginal DPS gains from item sets, rotation changes, etc. However you must take it into perspective with how the APLs are written and more importantly how boss fights go. Simulations are as accurate as what you tell simcraft to do.
What is your experience?
My experience is that for this entire expansion I've had to deal with mages comparing the 3 specs as though one is "best" - and it's pretty damn tiring. I put up with it on MMO-Champion for far too long. I don't know what it is everyone wants to know when the facts are plain as day: there are differences in damage output in certain situations among the three specs. However all three are completely viable, outperform other classes, and provide to some extent their own little niche. Frost is most certainly reliable and consistent, fast paced, and brings its own utility. It's also such a great option to feel more viable when at lower gear levels. Arcane is fantastic except for RoP and is the main reason I don't play it. Fire's great on output but to me it's dull and I hate combustion as a mechanic. I'd never disparage any mage from playing any of the specs, and I think only the top mages would even notice the DPS difference among them. In my 25H guild, we have 1 fire, 1 arcane, 1 frost, and 1 mage who changes specs constantly-- we all trade places for the #1 dps slot.
A lot, but raidbots and rankings are not that. You need to check boss kill times, damage on necessary targets, and weigh how much is padding versus effective DPS. It doesn't change the general Arcane>Fire>Frost order, but it does bring it more into a level playing field to take it all with perspective.
What do logs from training dummy sessions tell us?
ET%s, damage%s, tooltip information, and other helpful things but not a real picture of any actual boss encounter. Be sure to grab the spell haste buff from a shadow priest, hunter, or moonkin friend when testing.
What do simulations tell us?
Same as dummy sessions, but a bit more advanced. You can compare marginal DPS gains from item sets, rotation changes, etc. However you must take it into perspective with how the APLs are written and more importantly how boss fights go. Simulations are as accurate as what you tell simcraft to do.
What is your experience?
My experience is that for this entire expansion I've had to deal with mages comparing the 3 specs as though one is "best" - and it's pretty damn tiring. I put up with it on MMO-Champion for far too long. I don't know what it is everyone wants to know when the facts are plain as day: there are differences in damage output in certain situations among the three specs. However all three are completely viable, outperform other classes, and provide to some extent their own little niche. Frost is most certainly reliable and consistent, fast paced, and brings its own utility. It's also such a great option to feel more viable when at lower gear levels. Arcane is fantastic except for RoP and is the main reason I don't play it. Fire's great on output but to me it's dull and I hate combustion as a mechanic. I'd never disparage any mage from playing any of the specs, and I think only the top mages would even notice the DPS difference among them. In my 25H guild, we have 1 fire, 1 arcane, 1 frost, and 1 mage who changes specs constantly-- we all trade places for the #1 dps slot.
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Re: Frost/Fire/Arcane - Which spec allows currently the most
You've brought me out of forum hibernation for this post - Not only is noxxic horrible but simcraft has a broken APL for mages which is currently being worked on by the brilliant Frosted and Komma. A discussion about dps between specs is fine but please don't use that site 
Re: Frost/Fire/Arcane - Which spec allows currently the most
Thank you all for your fast answers.
I try to refrain speaking about "best" or "worst", but I must confess, that I initially chose "Frost", because it was shown way up in some simulated dps rankings, and because I was advised to use that spec for leveling.
What I do try to find out is: how close is the damage output really between the 3 specs, and what other reasons are there to play a certain spec.
Of course the main reason is: to play a spec which you enjoy the most, while playing, but for some players it might be most enjoyable, to play always the one spec, which does the most damage.
@Akraen you stated:
"I'd never disparage any mage from playing any of the specs, and I think only the top mages would even notice the DPS difference among them. In my 25H guild, we have 1 fire, 1 arcane, 1 frost, and 1 mage who changes specs constantly-- we all trade places for the #1 dps slot."
I would like to hear from the one mage in your raid, who constantly changes specs - how are the DPS results, and why does he change specs? Does he change between the different encounters?
"(...) but raidbots and rankings are not that. You need to check boss kill times, damage on necessary targets, and weigh how much is padding versus effective DPS. It doesn't change the general Arcane>Fire>Frost order, but it does bring it more into a level playing field to take it all with perspective."
Would you mind elaborating, how "boss kill times, damage on necessary targets" and "padding" affect the logs / dps rankings? What do you mean by "padding"?
"It doesn't change the general Arcane>Fire>Frost order, but it does bring it more into a level playing field to take it all with perspective."
At the moment I feel, I can't take that perspective where it is leveled, that for example the top 2 ranked fire mages did >940000 dps on the shamans, the top 2 ranked arcane mages did >775000 dps and the top frost mage did 713682 dps. Would you mind explaining on an example / log or something?
I try to refrain speaking about "best" or "worst", but I must confess, that I initially chose "Frost", because it was shown way up in some simulated dps rankings, and because I was advised to use that spec for leveling.
What I do try to find out is: how close is the damage output really between the 3 specs, and what other reasons are there to play a certain spec.
Of course the main reason is: to play a spec which you enjoy the most, while playing, but for some players it might be most enjoyable, to play always the one spec, which does the most damage.
@Akraen you stated:
"I'd never disparage any mage from playing any of the specs, and I think only the top mages would even notice the DPS difference among them. In my 25H guild, we have 1 fire, 1 arcane, 1 frost, and 1 mage who changes specs constantly-- we all trade places for the #1 dps slot."
I would like to hear from the one mage in your raid, who constantly changes specs - how are the DPS results, and why does he change specs? Does he change between the different encounters?
"(...) but raidbots and rankings are not that. You need to check boss kill times, damage on necessary targets, and weigh how much is padding versus effective DPS. It doesn't change the general Arcane>Fire>Frost order, but it does bring it more into a level playing field to take it all with perspective."
Would you mind elaborating, how "boss kill times, damage on necessary targets" and "padding" affect the logs / dps rankings? What do you mean by "padding"?
"It doesn't change the general Arcane>Fire>Frost order, but it does bring it more into a level playing field to take it all with perspective."
At the moment I feel, I can't take that perspective where it is leveled, that for example the top 2 ranked fire mages did >940000 dps on the shamans, the top 2 ranked arcane mages did >775000 dps and the top frost mage did 713682 dps. Would you mind explaining on an example / log or something?
Re: Frost/Fire/Arcane - Which spec allows currently the most
Frost has a lot of utility and unless you hit certain soft caps for haste and crit very good scaling with all three secondary stats. Further more Frost is very easy to learn and play compared to the other specs.Thank you all for your fast answers.
I try to refrain speaking about "best" or "worst", but I must confess, that I initially chose "Frost", because it was shown way up in some simulated dps rankings, and because I was advised to use that spec for leveling.
What I do try to find out is: how close is the damage output really between the 3 specs, and what other reasons are there to play a certain spec.
Of course the main reason is: to play a spec which you enjoy the most, while playing, but for some players it might be most enjoyable, to play always the one spec, which does the most damage.
How much damage you do also depends on how good you can play a spec. Currently I do the most damage playing Frost, simply because I am more expierenced with it, while I theoretically should be able to do a bit more damage with Arcane.
My current advice is, that unless you are a top end heroic player fishing for ranks, play the spec you feel the most comfortable with. Warlords will most likely level the field even more. So that skill with a certain spec gains even more importance.
Thats pretty simple:Would you mind elaborating, how "boss kill times, damage on necessary targets" and "padding" affect the logs / dps rankings? What do you mean by "padding"?
The shorter a kill the more time you spend affected by bloodlust, potions, cooldowns etc. Especially at start of a fight you will see huge dps spikes, if the fight is shorter, those spikes gain more relative weight.
Padding means hitting targets that are not required to damage for a dps gain. I.e cleaving to all paragons in the Klaxxi encounter.
Some fights favor a spec over another. Shamans is such a fight. You build a decent sized combustion on one of the four targets and spread it via Inferno Blast to the others as a fire mage. The other specs cannot do similiar things.At the moment I feel, I can't take that perspective where it is leveled, that for example the top 2 ranked fire mages did >940000 dps on the shamans, the top 2 ranked arcane mages did >775000 dps and the top frost mage did 713682 dps. Would you mind explaining on an example / log or something?
Shoot me a pm if you want me to elaborate on my crazy thoughts. I sometimes lose track of what I actually meant to say.
"The game isn't as simple as you."
Currently caught up in a game called Real Life. Activity may suffer from this.
"The game isn't as simple as you."
Currently caught up in a game called Real Life. Activity may suffer from this.
Re: Frost/Fire/Arcane - Which spec allows currently the most
I feel like the best way to answer your questions is to use a similar Q&A style to Akraen's post, so I'll give it a go.Thank you all for your fast answers.
I try to refrain speaking about "best" or "worst", but I must confess, that I initially chose "Frost", because it was shown way up in some simulated dps rankings, and because I was advised to use that spec for leveling.
What I do try to find out is: how close is the damage output really between the 3 specs, and what other reasons are there to play a certain spec.
Of course the main reason is: to play a spec which you enjoy the most, while playing, but for some players it might be most enjoyable, to play always the one spec, which does the most damage.
@Akraen you stated:
"I'd never disparage any mage from playing any of the specs, and I think only the top mages would even notice the DPS difference among them. In my 25H guild, we have 1 fire, 1 arcane, 1 frost, and 1 mage who changes specs constantly-- we all trade places for the #1 dps slot."
I would like to hear from the one mage in your raid, who constantly changes specs - how are the DPS results, and why does he change specs? Does he change between the different encounters?
"(...) but raidbots and rankings are not that. You need to check boss kill times, damage on necessary targets, and weigh how much is padding versus effective DPS. It doesn't change the general Arcane>Fire>Frost order, but it does bring it more into a level playing field to take it all with perspective."
Would you mind elaborating, how "boss kill times, damage on necessary targets" and "padding" affect the logs / dps rankings? What do you mean by "padding"?
"It doesn't change the general Arcane>Fire>Frost order, but it does bring it more into a level playing field to take it all with perspective."
At the moment I feel, I can't take that perspective where it is leveled, that for example the top 2 ranked fire mages did >940000 dps on the shamans, the top 2 ranked arcane mages did >775000 dps and the top frost mage did 713682 dps. Would you mind explaining on an example / log or something?
What is wrong with DPS rankings?
DPS rankings don't compare specs meaningfully. The top parses right now for all bosses involve a number of gimmicks that make them useless for comparison.
You mentioned Dark Shamans. Top parses right now involve intentionally leaving grunts alive until you pull, and killing them right after entering combat with the boss. This inflates numbers greatly, while having no meaningful impact on the boss kill. Also, Dark Shamans is a boss fight that starts with 4 mobs, 2 of which are beasts. Top fire mages are often trolls, and take advantage of the 2 dogs for their 5% racial, generate a gigantic combustion and spread it across 4 mobs. This is a special case that can only be done on Dark Shamans, and to a certain extent, protectors.
Similar "number tricks" can be done on many bosses. On Nazgrim, many guilds choose to pull the Ironblades (warrior trash mobs) with the boss. Galakras has a trick for disabling the cannons without pulling trash, which you then kill during the boss fight. On spoils you can open additional small boxes which contain Burial Urns, and you don't kill them, but let them spawn a lot of little sparks that you can attack for numbers.
Top ranks also have serious bias towards spec DPS variance. For an extremely simplified, somewhat misleading picture, supppose mage X has a range of 90K-110K DPS, versus mage Y being 70K-120K DPS. Mage X has a higher average of 100K dps versus mage Y having 95K DPS, but when it comes to top parses, you are more likely to see mage Y on top because of the potential 120K DPS number, which mage X has no chance of reaching.
Why do kill times matter? How do they affect DPS?
A simplified answer is that "The faster you kill the boss, the higher your numbers will be." Similar to what Soggs said, the faster you kill a boss, the higher proportion of the fight you spend under powerful cooldown abilities such as Bloodlust, and Icy Veins/Arcane Power/Combustion. Have you ever tried using Time Warp and cooldowns to kill a quest mob, and notice how your DPS is through the roof because it died nearly instantly? Faster boss kills essentially do the same thing.
What is wrong with Noxxic?
Noxxic mindlessly takes results from Simulationcraft, and generates guides/references from them. They have no experienced players of each class to review the results. This means that their guides don't reflect realistic situations, and depend completely on the accuracy of Simulationcraft's "single target stand and burn DPS" evaluations. This also means that valuable components to raiding, such as DPS during movement, multitarget cleave DPS, AOE DPS, burst damage on priority targets, survival, are all completely ignored by Noxxic. If you look at Noxxic's guides closely, you'll see that they ignore all movement, survival, and utility talents.
Simulationcraft is a great tool, but it is only as accurate as the information you feed it. You mentioned Frost seeming to be the strongest, and it is no surprise to me - Frost's Simulationcraft module has been much better developed than the other two modules, and comes closest to what it can do in real raid situations. This does not reflect real raiding at all.
So what is the BEST DPS SPEC?
The general consensus is that there isn't one. On each fight, there will be certain elements that favor one spec or another, but it also depends on the strategy being utilized by your raid, and tiny details in how they execute it. For example, tanking Fallen Protectors together will favor a mastery-based fire mage due to powerful ignite cleaving, while tanking them separated by a few extra yards will favor a haste-based fire mage.
The only advice we can give, is that you should play what you're comfortable with, and adjust it according to the needs of the group. That will give you the BEST RESULTS.
Re: Frost/Fire/Arcane - Which spec allows currently the most
Post of the century right there Komma, +1!
Re: Frost/Fire/Arcane - Which spec allows currently the most
Just don't have a mental breakdown like Warcraft Hunter Union did over trying to explain what the best hunter pet is. I think Komma is like one expansion away from turning into this (Warning - NSFW):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhvvNGeHHME" target="_blank
What is actually great at this point is the fact that all three mage specs are close enough and each has enough strengths and weaknesses that there isn't one clear winner that is going to do the most DPS for every single player in every single situation. Now that there isn't one obvious spec that wins, deciding what the best thing is for each individual player becomes a lot more complicated. Comparison of the common lore of what is "best" across various regions highlights the fact that what people think is the best is just a cultural lore we've built within our reason to give people a "right" answer to the question of what is "best".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhvvNGeHHME" target="_blank
What is actually great at this point is the fact that all three mage specs are close enough and each has enough strengths and weaknesses that there isn't one clear winner that is going to do the most DPS for every single player in every single situation. Now that there isn't one obvious spec that wins, deciding what the best thing is for each individual player becomes a lot more complicated. Comparison of the common lore of what is "best" across various regions highlights the fact that what people think is the best is just a cultural lore we've built within our reason to give people a "right" answer to the question of what is "best".
Re: Frost/Fire/Arcane - Which spec allows currently the most
I passed that mental breakdown months ago on MMOC, hehe.
Re: Frost/Fire/Arcane - Which spec allows currently the most
I'm not some great theory crunching addict but I am someone who spends inordinate amounts of time reading various guides and forums trying to increase my knowledge.
What I can say is that Komma's comment "The only advice we can give, is that you should play what you're comfortable with, and adjust it according to the needs of the group. That will give you the BEST RESULTS." is bang on the money.
I have not bad gear for fire, pretty crit heavy, but I suck at fire and much prefer (right now at least) frost.
Not proof I know......but it certain feels correct.
What I can say is that Komma's comment "The only advice we can give, is that you should play what you're comfortable with, and adjust it according to the needs of the group. That will give you the BEST RESULTS." is bang on the money.
I have not bad gear for fire, pretty crit heavy, but I suck at fire and much prefer (right now at least) frost.
Not proof I know......but it certain feels correct.
Re: Frost/Fire/Arcane - Which spec allows currently the most
New here, but wanted to chime in on this thread, I couldn't agree more with what Akraen and Komma said! All three are good if you know what you're doing, for me Frost has been my favorite so far. I am however going to play around with Arcane some.
What ever spec you choose you'll find lots of great info on these boards!
What ever spec you choose you'll find lots of great info on these boards!
Re: Frost/Fire/Arcane - Which spec allows currently the most
Each spec has its' benefits. Really nothing much i can add that some of these guys have not said, so with that said i am not going to beat a dead horse to death. I will say though, that Frost is great for progression. Arcane takes a while to get used to. You have to be able to follow mechanics excellently and learn to use ROP. I just switched over to Arcane after playing Frost since i started WOW. I feel already at 580 that it will do more dps, I feel that even if i am an Ok Arcane Mage i will out dps my Frost spec no matter how well i play it. But hopefully in 6.0 or WOD that will change. I firmly think that all 3 specs will be close, and have their own benefits
And Chubbed. We googled and got the same reply for "create Forum Signature WOW lmao
And Chubbed. We googled and got the same reply for "create Forum Signature WOW lmao
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