Prophecy of Fear [Megathread]

[gameorg]

Has anyone tried simming different openers with PoF and PC? Since it procs on the first cast we either lose ~half of the uptime on the trinket or delay PC. I didn't see anything built to handle this in the arcane APL, so guessing it just eats half the initial proc's uptime and drops PC immediately at 4 stacks.

Wondering if it is worth dumping missiles into the PoF target before dropping PC to take advantage of it better (especially if we still have 4T17)?

Yes the standard Opening rotation does what you describe.

We were discussing this in our mage chat aswell. I think, the arcane Opener is still unrefined in simcraft. With Prophecy of Fear and 4P we have 2 reasons to delay PC, which both together could potentially end up in a dps gain. I can imagine a situation like AM procs occuring during AB-Buildup: Fishing for 4Piece and proccing Doom Nova at the same time to fully utilize its duration. This should also be simmable.

[Liandry]

Unlike gorens/darmacs - I have yet to see prophecy proc on the first cast. In all our attempts on archimonde it refused to proc til the 3rd or 4th cast.

My general consensus was to either attempt to drop PC at 2 stacks, losing 2 seconds on that uptime in favor of the 30%, or just dumping missiles into the target without PC.

[gameorg]

Unlike gorens/darmacs - I have yet to see prophecy proc on the first cast. In all our attempts on archimonde it refused to proc til the 3rd or 4th cast.

My general consensus was to either attempt to drop PC at 2 stacks, losing 2 seconds on that uptime in favor of the 30%, or just dumping missiles into the target without PC.

Hope i get my grab on it tonight for some testing. Maybe its different because it applies a debuff on target? Also because of that, is this trinket even Pre-Proc able?

[Stressball]

It only doesn't proc on the first cast for me if we pull again very quickly. If it has enough to time charge between wipes then it pops on the first cast every time in my experience. Only had it a few days, but I've only had a handful of pulls where I didn't have it proc immediately. Maybe my guild just pulls slowly?

[isa]

There is no way to pre proc it and it suffers from the same issues as the old fire 4P. I hope I don't butcher the explanation but basically because of the RPPM rate of 0.9 for arcane the amound of seconds since the last proc needed for a 100% proc chance is more then 120 sec. That counter is always fixed to 120 sec at the beginning of combat so the chance of it actually proccing straight away are pretty slim very similar to what the fire 4set was doing.

On pure single target fights I can't really figure out how to use PC, at the moment when testing I'm just delaying it until after my first mark of doom. I'm quite sure that even if you do pop PC before PoF procs the damage from PC has a good chance to apply doom nova to the boss [citation needed] (either that happened to me or the cleave of SN applied it either way you're screwed). But I don't see it as a very big issue since it seems that Overpowered is going to be very strong when we get 4P and archi trinket anyways. Overpowered is sort of nice with PoF anyways because if you do get PoF you get to dump all your missiles on the boss without really losing AP uptime and if it doesn't proc you just get to blast like a crazy person.

On any other fight I've been playing with Arcane Orb since it gives loads and loads of missile procs. The only extra RNG you introduce in to your rotation is that AO may apply mark of doom to a target with low HP and you won't be able to benefit from it and you'll have to wait for quite a while for your BLP to stack back up. I do think that playstyles that reduce the influence of RNG on your DPS are going to be better overall then just playing what sims better but it's very unclear to me what that's going to be.

I'm also liking SN on cleave fights over NT because it seems like a good way to fish for extra missile procs when your mark of doom is up and you're out of procs. Especially if there are multiple targets to be hit you increase the chance of missile procs and the reward increases as well because of the cleave effect of the trinkets.

Anyways this is really just my experience with the trinket so far, tonight is the first time I'll be able to test it out in an actual raid environment. Don't take anything as a fact

[Smaiki]

Why does it suffer like T17pc4 fire?
The trinket has almost the same RPPM proc chance as the ring or other BRF trinkets (0.92 RPPM) have whereas fire's 4pc has 0.7 RPPM.
Yesterday, I had to wait sometimes even 30s or more for the first proc which is really strange as the 0.92 RPPM stuff procs every time at the pull. within seconds w/o the pre-pull trick.
IIRC the proc chance with RPPM increases when they didn't proc for the last 1.5 x (average proc interval) seconds.

0.92 RPPM = 65.2s ---> * 1.5 = 97.8s
0.90 RPPM = 66.7s ---> * 1.5 = 100,0s
0.70 RPPM = 85.1s ---> * 1.5 = 127.5s

With the boss pull, the time_since_last_proc is reset to 120s. Because T17pc4 fire is above 120s, it does not proc with the pull very often starting to increase its proc chance after 7,5s infight.
For PoF with 100.0s, it should proc instantly.

What I tried yesterday:
I just used PC after the first two casts.
Nevertheless, it happened sometimes that the trinket procced right after putting PC.
Then, I nuked on the marked target because you'll damage both the target and the PC with the PoF explosion which is better than the +30%dmg from PC without PoF explosions.

I mean my AB hits with 90k or so on pull (4 stacks) which would be a 27k gain on PC.
1 PoF explosion deals 17k damage + 17k * 1,3 from PC = 39.1k.
39.1k > 27k!
And you would even trigger more explosions from Arcane Missiles.

PS: I hate it so much when it procs on units with low health or the last 2s of PC!!!
But I also like 5 procs in 2 minutes

[isa]

My math sucks.. sorry

[Lammer]

Please, correct me if i did not understand the PC vs Doom Nova (DN) issue right:

a) when you dps PC and the boss has DN mark on itself, the 130% AoE damage from PC does not touch DN mark on the boss = does not create any damage from DN by this AoE, that is where we see the main problem: losing DN proc (or its part) because we dps PC and not dps the boss

b) when you dps PC and the boss has DN mark on itself, the only way (for arcane) to create damage from DN is 1. switching to the boss 2. AoE spells like SN into PC: PC's AoE will not touch DN, but SN's AoE will do

с) PC's 130% AoE can not trigger DN on boss (trigger = the debuff appeared on the boss), which is a potential dps loss. Even short period fights have 3 PC usages, which is 36 seconds, quite a substantial amount of time for non-DN period

Thus, the obvious decision is to keep PC for DN proc, place it, dps the boss and enjoy reflected DN from PC. But procs are very very RNG so we may lose a number of potential PC usages, if keeping PC for every DN proc. That's why PC seems unfavorable choice with PoF trinket, and it is better to use Orb or OP

[gameorg]

Please, correct me if i did not understand the PC vs Doom Nova (DN) issue right:

a) when you dps PC and the boss has DN mark on itself, the 130% AoE damage from PC does not touch DN mark on the boss = does not create any damage from DN by this AoE, that is where we see the main problem: losing DN proc (or its part) because we dps PC and not dps the boss

b) when you dps PC and the boss has DN mark on itself, the only way (for arcane) to create damage from DN is 1. switching to the boss 2. AoE spells like SN into PC: PC's AoE will not touch DN, but SN's AoE will do

с) PC's 130% AoE can not trigger DN on boss (trigger = the debuff appeared on the boss), which is a potential dps loss. Even short period fights have 3 PC usages, which is 36 seconds, quite a substantial amount of time for non-DN period

Thus, the obvious decision is to keep PC for DN proc, place it, dps the boss and enjoy reflected DN from PC. But procs are very very RNG so we may lose a number of potential PC usages, if keeping PC for every DN proc. That's why PC seems unfavorable choice with PoF trinket, and it is better to use Orb or OP

a) True
b) True and also keep in mind that if u switch over, Doom Explosion triggers PC Damage.
c) True but it can proc on the PC (which can be amazing or quite afwul depending on duration left)


add b) If u are in that scenario, you might dump 2 SN into PC and then switch over with your arcane missiles on the boss. The Doom Nova Explosions will trigger PC damage aswell and will overall do more damage than if u targeted PC.

add c) Depending on what gear you got you might get different answers. For me personally (PoF Heroic and 4P M T17) PC is 1500>AO and 2500> OP. It is also not worth it for me to switch to 2P N T17 right now because of the synergy of T17 4P and PoF.
Once you got PoF and atleast 2P T17 Heroic you might see AO catch up because it synergizes better with 2P T17.

But keep in mind, that the PC opener is not ideally simcrafted right now. It simple ignores a Mark of Doom on the Boss if its time for PC. In Pratice players will delay/speed up the PC usage to make full use of the Trinket Proc, depending on when it procs.

The Goal is to not have PC and Doom Nova split.

[Stressball]

What I've Deen doing is tracking the duration of Mark of Doom on the boss, dumping any AMs I get from the first four ABs as I build, dropping PC, and any AMs I get while on PC I swap back to the boss for as long as I can fit them in before Mark expires. The 5 double explosions you get easily are worth more than the 1.3x on a single AM.

Not an APL expert, but I'll see if I can model that when I get home.

I think the real question is whether it is worth delaying PC until after Mark of Doom has dropped since at that point you're comparing 1.3x from PC with only the amplified damage from the PC Doom Nova (since you aren't sacrificing the boss Doom Nova), not factoring in any loss from delaying. I would expect the Mage Trinket to help make the case for delaying since we then can control our trinket uptime with PC.

[Smaiki]

But what should I do with PoF + Mage trinket?
PoF wants me to use as much as possible Missiles on the marked target and the mage trinket says "Do ABs with AP!".
What if I got 2-3 AM procs on the pull with AP up and a marked target.
If I use the 2-3 AM procs, I would lose 4-6s w/o casting AB while AP is up (gain from the mage trinket = 0)
If I continue casting ABs, I would lose more explosion with AMs on the marked target.

I hope you know what I mean. No matter which method you choose, it would shrink the benefit from the other trinket.

Another thing:
Yesterday, I got the mage trinket nhc and simmed it against Goren Mythic.
I lost 650 DPS. Then I simmed again with UM instead of Supernova and I gained 1k DPS.
So it turned out that the mage trinket seems only to be good with UM?!
But using UM instead of Supernova seems really odd to me because you lose some mobility with Supernova + getting AM procs from add waves like Archi fight which is good for PoF and both T18 bonuses.

TL;DR: Is the mage trinket only BiS for single target fights? I can see there a lot of cons with the trinket regarding PoF, mobility, T18 bonuses.

[300kg]

But what should I do with PoF + Mage trinket?
PoF wants me to use as much as possible Missiles on the marked target and the mage trinket says "Do ABs with AP!".
What if I got 2-3 AM procs on the pull with AP up and a marked target.
If I use the 2-3 AM procs, I would lose 4-6s w/o casting AB while AP is up (gain from the mage trinket = 0)
If I continue casting ABs, I would lose more explosion with AMs on the marked target.

I hope you know what I mean. No matter which method you choose, it would shrink the benefit from the other trinket.

Another thing:
Yesterday, I got the mage trinket nhc and simmed it against Goren Mythic.
I lost 650 DPS. Then I simmed again with UM instead of Supernova and I gained 1k DPS.
So it turned out that the mage trinket seems only to be good with UM?!
But using UM instead of Supernova seems really odd to me because you lose some mobility with Supernova + getting AM procs from add waves like Archi fight which is good for PoF and both T18 bonuses.

TL;DR: Is the mage trinket only BiS for single target fights? I can see there a lot of cons with the trinket regarding PoF, mobility, T18 bonuses.

You can just switch to OP instead, and use AM if Doom Nova is up on the target, thereby extending Arcane Power.

Most of your questions in the second part is answered in the Arcane overview thread made by Frosted (http://altered-time.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1509" target="_blank) but I will try to sum it up.
Supernova does not scale with haste, which you will be stacking until 20-25% raidbuffed, but Unstable Magic does. T18 bonuses scale with haste. Doom Nova as well. Plus I believe the AoE from UM also can proc AM(though im not 100% sure of this. Need to test it)

[gameorg]

Since i got my grab onto the trinket i experimented a bit with the opener:

I tried 1) Precast>AB>Put PC. In 90% of the attempts this resulted in a Mark of Doom on the Boss while i put PC down. I actually dont even know how this happens, since my 2nd AB landed and there was quite some delay until the boss got Mark of Doom.

In that scenario you want to Use both SN on Crystal and then switch over to the boss and dump as much AM's into it. Switch back to Pc if some time is left.

In one try i got Mark on the crystal. Needless to say that i opened with >300k dps on 1 target. This is the ideal scenario.

A mixed approach would be to use any missile procs into mark of doom on the boss, and then put PC down. This would also allow 2P proccs to occure before PC/SN. Once you switch over to UM+PC its getting even weirder, because you have no bufferup Supernova to switch targets and create missiles proc. with UM+PC i think delaying PC is the safest choice.

Iam not quite sure what the best approach is and i am interested to hear your ideas.

[Searix]

Been thinking a lot about the APL

At a minimum this should be a dps increase:

When it's time to burn:
Drop crystal, pop cooldowns etc,
If Mark of Doom is on boss (at least 3 secs), target boss
Arcane Missiles (if travel time < mark remaining duration)
Target crystal, supernova (hopefully as it expires)

Super rough numbers:
~25k mark of doom average hit (multistrike and crit factored in)
25k*1.3=32.5k reflected Mark of doom average hit

So ~57.5k (non 4 pc t18) per hit of doom nova when crystal is down. Minus arcane missiles hitting the boss instead of crystal ~10k a missile =-50k

Assuming average of 1 AM cast and 1 supernova of this =6*57.5k-50k=~295k bonus damage with this APL the ~10% of the time boss has Mark debuff when we do our crystal rotation, more if we have 4pcT18

Conclusions:
-This is a bit more important for aoe fights, where an ignored Mark will be a dps loss
-I doubt we can completely fish for a full duration Mark for every burn but it would be interesting to see.
-We might be able to cast AM then place crystal when they're in midair

[300kg]

Since i got my grab onto the trinket i experimented a bit with the opener:

I tried 1) Precast>AB>Put PC. In 90% of the attempts this resulted in a Mark of Doom on the Boss while i put PC down. I actually dont even know how this happens, since my 2nd AB landed and there was quite some delay until the boss got Mark of Doom.

Were you using the Felmouth Frenzy by any chance?

[gameorg]

Since i got my grab onto the trinket i experimented a bit with the opener:

I tried 1) Precast>AB>Put PC. In 90% of the attempts this resulted in a Mark of Doom on the Boss while i put PC down. I actually dont even know how this happens, since my 2nd AB landed and there was quite some delay until the boss got Mark of Doom.

Were you using the Felmouth Frenzy by any chance?

Indeed i was. Does it really trigger the trinket proc? Since it doesnt trigger the Explosion.

[Troopcsd]

Does it really trigger the trinket proc?

Appears it does, yes. Log.

Code: Select all

00:00:24.910 Troopcsd Melee Dungeoneer's Training Dummy 473 (B: 203) 00:00:24.910 Troopcsd Melee Dungeoneer's Training Dummy 195 (Multistrike) 00:00:25.154 Troopcsd Fel Lash Dungeoneer's Training Dummy 3524 00:00:25.425 Troopcsd Fel Lash Dungeoneer's Training Dummy 3620 00:00:25.667 Troopcsd Fel Lash Dungeoneer's Training Dummy 3359 00:00:25.910 Troopcsd Fel Lash Dungeoneer's Training Dummy 3296 00:00:25.910 Dungeoneer's Training Dummy is afflicted by Mark of Doom from Troopcsd 00:00:26.970 Troopcsd Melee Dungeoneer's Training Dummy 590

Rarely saw it during actual encounters, but something to keep in mind when using PC.

[gameorg]

In that case i would suggest to not use felmouth frenzy if u use PC. It really screwed it up in alot of pulls, because PoF was allways proccing while i was putting down PC.

And this should make Opener>AB>PC quite a solid choice. Those pulls would have been so much better if it just procced on the next AB (on crystal).

[Kirielle]

Anyone have thoughts on frost opener? I'm having the same problem as frost, where Mark of Doom virtually always procs on the boss before I can get PC down. I'm precasting FB - WJ - FB, maybe I should just delay opener slightly and place PC after first precasted FB, WJ crystal and hope first FB didn't proc it?

[Searix]

In that case i would suggest to not use felmouth frenzy if u use PC. It really screwed it up in alot of pulls, because PoF was allways proccing while i was putting down PC.

And this should make Opener>AB>PC quite a solid choice. Those pulls would have been so much better if it just procced on the next AB (on crystal).

I mentioned this a few posts up - proccing on the boss is a dps increase. Just drop crystal and continue targeting the boss
Arcane Blast should be dps neutral (lose the 30% buff, but get a reflected Mark proc)
Arcane Missiles, however, should gain a lot per cast (5 mark procs at 60k less not hitting the crystal)
Supernova the crystal and get two bonus reflected marks