Got Frost 4PC, not certain on how to best use it

[Valounette]

Note that I have no Archimonde trinket, so FBweaving is not necessary.

It can feel clunky.

Better to prioritise frozen orb or waterjet? If you prioritise waterjet, Frozen orb will lag out of sync with cooldowns. If you prioritise Frozen orb, I feel you miss too many FoF procs. Using both at the same time can often work, on single target, but still results in a lot of inefficiency! But I'm leaning towards using it on cooldown.

Last, and the last question: When to stop Frostbolting during Waterjet, and starting to use an Ice lance? I believe we should Ice lance at 3 FoF, right?

For example: You have 3 FoF, casting Frostbolt - should the next cast be Frostbolt or Ice lance?

Scenario 1: with 3 FoF -> Frostbolt, if your next cast is not Ice lance, you can munch a FoF (because of the chance to get one FoF from finishing the cast, and one from impact onto the Waterjet target. This method is correct, right?

Other possible scenario (edit: which the stickied guide says, to wait until 4): (ignoring the chance to generate a proc from Frostbolt): 3 FoF - Frostbolt - Frostbolt (by the time this cast completes, you're already on 4 FoF, so even after you Ice lance, there's a small chance of munching. Repeat Frostbolt>Icelance at 4fof until waterjet expires

Surely the first way is better?

[Killget]

Is this with or without the Mage trinket?

[Valounette]

Is this with or without the Mage trinket?

Note that I have no Archimonde trinket

[Breaktheice]

From my guide:

[Neculsa]

It looks to me you should still cast frostbolt when you have 4 stacks of FoF, and an IL should be followed instantly after that FB. The reason is that the last FB won't proc you FoF until it hits the target, while the following IL will immediately consume 1 stack of FoF. Therefore, it becomes into 3 stacks during the traveling time of your last FB.

[Wilderness]

Better to prioritise frozen orb or waterjet?

No one really seems to have answered this question – in any of the guides or other posts here on AT that I’ve seen. Particularly once you do have the class trinket and want to weave as much as you can – on the opener, both WJ and FO will be up, and regularly throughout the fight they will line up again as well. What’s the optimal way to manage those, particularly in cleave situations (since I think that’s where most people, including myself, will use Frost).

[Ssang]

Another question on priority with 4pT18, particularly during WJ - if you have 2 procs of BF and < 4 FOF should you spend 1 BF instead of casting frostbolt to prevent possibly losing a charge of BF? Or is the idea that you should maximize FOF procs (particularly when you have the class trinket)?

[Nevu]

Hey guys, long time follower, first time posting.

Regarding the orb, I just got the 4p and it seems to me that you can almost "ignore" the orb (just throwing it whenever it's up unless playing with PC) in single target situations (Iskar P1 for example) and keep using WJ and weaving FB/IL whenever you reach 4 FoF, even without the class trinket, until you can't fit a FB in the remaining time on WJ.
However, I think the orb will generate more FoF around 4 targets (roughly), thus making it worth to delay WJ (Iskar P2). That's how I do it anyway.

[Valounette]

It looks to me you should still cast frostbolt when you have 4 stacks of FoF, and an IL should be followed instantly after that FB. The reason is that the last FB won't proc you FoF until it hits the target, while the following IL will immediately consume 1 stack of FoF. Therefore, it becomes into 3 stacks during the traveling time of your last FB.

But FoF can also proc normally from completion of a Frostbolt cast, in which you would munch a proc.

Anyway, I've found it's best to Icelance on 3 (this accounts for procs both on impact and cast) UNLESS I only have enough waterjet duration for one more frostbolt cast. Here, if I'm at 4 FoF, I'll frostbolt first, since I have a 100% chance to gain another FoF, but only a small chance to munch

[Ssang]

So both of you are allowing BF to overwrite if it procs, in order to maximize FB and FOF during WJ correct?

[Methusula]

Guaranteed FoF>chance of BF

[Komma]

I believe the sim actually dumps BF when capped even during WJ, and it is a small gain. BF does hit very hard with 2T18. The issue is, BF also has a chance to generate FoF.

[Breaktheice]

This 4 PC is actually really OP if you get 100% use out of it. Issue is even with Ice Floes you probably can never utilize it to its 100% effect, which is fine really. It's just additional windows of opportunity for FoFs, which when paired with Shatterlance passive is hella OP, especially on cleave fights. Probably going to want to pass on Frost Bomb with it though, considering how it gets way too complex, UM + Shatterlance is amazing.

[Breaktheice]

It looks to me you should still cast frostbolt when you have 4 stacks of FoF, and an IL should be followed instantly after that FB. The reason is that the last FB won't proc you FoF until it hits the target, while the following IL will immediately consume 1 stack of FoF. Therefore, it becomes into 3 stacks during the traveling time of your last FB.

This actually risks an override. Frostbolt's inherent 15% chance to proc a FoF still exists during Water Jet, meaning that during Water Jet, each Frostbolt has both a 100% to grant an FoF from Water Jet's debuff, and its inherent 15% chance as well. There actually is a 2.25% (15% x 15%) chance that the first 2 Frostbolts in a Water Jet can cap you at 4 charges.

Consequently, if you're capped at 4, and go Frostbolt > IL, you'll gain a FoF back from Water Jet but you risk a munch from the base 15% chance. But at 4 stacks if you go IL > Frostbolt > IL you don't risk an override. While Frostbolt is in transit you'll have 3 charges of FoF, you can exhaust one to dip back to 2 in case the Frostbolt yields 2. If the Frostbolt yields just 1, that's fine too, because you'll be back at 3. This allows you to either FFB (if the Frostbolt capped you at 2 x BF, since you would have gotten one from the Water Jet anyway) or Frostbolt again.

The TL;DR is:
+ During Water Jet, if you're max - 1 stack of FoF, you Frostbolt > IL.
+ During Water Jet, if you're max FoF, you IL > Frostbolt > IL.

[Wilderness]

+ During Water Jet, if you're max FoF, you IL > Frostbolt > IL.

Even if you have the class trinket? The chance to waste an FoF proc is worth missing losing the extra damage from that first IL b/c it wasn't proceeded by Frostbolt?

[Valounette]

So both of you are allowing BF to overwrite if it procs, in order to maximize FB and FOF during WJ correct?

Oh. No, I don't. I was just talking about basic Frostbolt/FoF management

[taroboba]

I have 4pc and class trinket and it's near impossible to consistently use all my FoF procs before my generators (orb and WJ) come back up. If you have a generator available and still have 2+ FoF procs remaining, is it better to spam lance to use up the procs, then use orb and WJ as soon as possible? Or, would it be better to just continue weaving and delay orb and WJ?

I've been going with the latter option which gives me the most shatterlances, but at the cost of missing a lot of potential FoF procs.

[Breaktheice]

+ During Water Jet, if you're max FoF, you IL > Frostbolt > IL.

Even if you have the class trinket? The chance to waste an FoF proc is worth missing losing the extra damage from that first IL b/c it wasn't proceeded by Frostbolt?

Well the dicussion here is about 4 PC, not 4 PC + Shatter lance.

The assumption in most cases is that FoFs generated during Water Jet are from Frostbolts anyway. The spell used before the initial IL could have very well been Frostbolt.

+ Let's say the Water Jet went something like Frostbolt > Frostbolt > Frostbolt (maybe this one gave us 2 x FoF?) > IL > Frostbolt > IL <<< Still uses the Shatterlance properly.
+ Or, Frostbolt > Frostbolt (both gave 2 each) > IL Frostbolt > IL
+ Or, Frostbolt > Frostbolt > Frostbolt > Frostbolt > IL > Frostbolt > IL

^Each scenario uses the Shatterlance passive properly

[Valounette]

I have 4pc and class trinket and it's near impossible to consistently use all my FoF procs before my generators (orb and WJ) come back up. If you have a generator available and still have 2+ FoF procs remaining, is it better to spam lance to use up the procs, then use orb and WJ as soon as possible? Or, would it be better to just continue weaving and delay orb and WJ?

I've been going with the latter option which gives me the most shatterlances, but at the cost of missing a lot of potential FoF procs.

I'm wondering about this too. The thing is though, here:

I've been going with the latter option which gives me the most shatterlances, but at the cost of missing a lot of potential FoF procs.

It's a case of: what's better: Maximising Shatterlances (delaying Waterjet until all FoF have been used), or, maximising Waterjet (using it on cooldown), which can only always be possible by dumping Ice lances without Shatterlance (like we would without the trinket) if they are still available as Waterjet is coming off cooldown.
Starting Waterjet when you already have FoF isn't an option either, in my opinion, because if we already have FoF available and use Waterjet, we will be wasting FoF to munching anyway. i.e. the 'potential' FoF from Waterjet doesn't actually exist if we start the channel with FoF, because the FoF would be munched/have to be used up anyway and we wouldn't have enough time to Frostbolt during Waterjet.

So, back to the question: When Waterjet is off cooldown and we have FoF available, is more Shatterlances better, or more total FoF[waterjet uptime] (where a small percentage of used FoF don't benefit from Shatterlance) better?
It's actually quite easy to answer: Since in both scenarios we're using an Icelance anyway (either Frostbolt>Ice lance for Shatterlance, or Ice lance spam to dump procs faster for more Waterjet uptime), the only difference is the Frostbolt.

And thus the new question becomes: Is the Frostbolt worth the Waterjet downtime?

[edited out my previous thoughts on this, too inaccurate, tooltips incorrect and forgot about Frostbolt passive castspeed buff. Too complicated to napkin math without sims]

[Naedrim]

Just a heads up Valounette, the class trinket gives less damage to Ice Lance than it shows. The tooltip was never updated after the 33% nerf, so Tome provides 33% less damage through Shatterlance than it says.