Got Frost 4PC, not certain on how to best use it

[Valounette]

Just a heads up Valounette, the class trinket gives less damage to Ice Lance than it shows. The tooltip was never updated after the 33% nerf, so Tome provides 33% less damage through Shatterlance than it says.

Hm that does throw off the napkin math from tooltips slightly. Though given that the margin between the two options appears to be incredibly large, especially without even considering the Frostbolt damage, I'm still leaning towards Shatterlance spam being a considerable over throwing out 1-4 regular Ice lance FoF to waterjet sooner.

Got to wait until sims though!

[Ayonjia]

Starting Waterjet when you already have FoF isn't an option either, in my opinion, because if we already have FoF available and use Waterjet, we will be wasting FoF to munching anyway. i.e. the 'potential' FoF from Waterjet doesn't actually exist if we start the channel with FoF, because the FoF would be munched/have to be used up anyway and we wouldn't have enough time to Frostbolt during Waterjet.

I'm confused by this. I don't have 4 piece currently to play with it, and researching on the web I couldn't find anything concrete on this. My understanding is however that the increase to maximum 4 Fingers of Frost stacks is all the time, not just during WJ. So it seems like you'd only really risk munching a FoF proc if you were at 4 already, and even then, Breaktheice's guide is recommending you spend the majority of your time at 4 proc's through WJ - so wouldn't this just be a dps increase instead?

Would be interesting to know what the simcraft api does in this case, particularly concerning the "to Frost orb or not to Frost orb" question.

[Breaktheice]

Actually the intent of the Flowchart was what I explained,

Max FoF? IL > FB > IL
3 FoF? FB > IL

In practice the 4 PC is really hard to properly use, not only because encounter mechanics can force you out of a DPS rotation, but also because the flowchart discounts BF procs/use. Going into WJ with 1 x BF (from 2 PC) and a cap of just 2 can make things messy

[Valounette]

Starting Waterjet when you already have FoF isn't an option either, in my opinion, because if we already have FoF available and use Waterjet, we will be wasting FoF to munching anyway. i.e. the 'potential' FoF from Waterjet doesn't actually exist if we start the channel with FoF, because the FoF would be munched/have to be used up anyway and we wouldn't have enough time to Frostbolt during Waterjet.

I'm confused by this. I don't have 4 piece currently to play with it, and researching on the web I couldn't find anything concrete on this. My understanding is however that the increase to maximum 4 Fingers of Frost stacks is all the time, not just during WJ. So it seems like you'd only really risk munching a FoF proc if you were at 4 already, and even then, Breaktheice's guide is recommending you spend the majority of your time at 4 proc's through WJ - so wouldn't this just be a dps increase instead?

Would be interesting to know what the simcraft api does in this case, particularly concerning the "to Frost orb or not to Frost orb" question.

Let me clarify:

Yes, the cap of FoF is always 4.

We spent the duration of Waterjet casting a lot of Frostbolts to get to the cap of 4 (or 3) faster. However, if we enter the Waterjet with 4 FoF already (or any amount of FoF), then we have to spend additional GCDs during FoF on Ice lance, so we don't munch. Meaning: we have less room for Frostbolts (to generate more FoF) because we're full on FoF much earlier.

Empty your FoF first (I believe emptying with Shatterlance, even if it means delaying Waterjet, is better), so you have more time to generate them instead of getting rid of them during Waterjet

You can take this as a grain of salt until sims prove it though

[Voltairus]

So there are a couple questions I'd like to ask in case I misread things and missed it or just flat out misunderstood.

1. Why is it an issue to start channeling Water Jet when already at 2-3 stacks of FoF? If I am finishing a cast of Frostbolt and it creates a 3rd FoF. I then channel Water Jet as I am casting the next Frostbolt, I would gain a Brain Freeze proc and just as Frostbolt finishes I toss out an ice lance to avoid a potential double FoF proc that would put me at 5 and wasting one. I would then continue the shatterlance weaving as I would normally. What am I missing that makes starting Water Jet while already at 2-3 stacks wrong?

2. When it comes to when to use Frozen Orb and Water Jet I would imagine that casting Frozen Orb at a low count of FoF or better yet at zero stacks and beginning a channel of Water Jet would just result in a quicker start to shatterlance weaving and not cause an issue on single target. I can imagine that at 3+ that wouldn't be viable because you could get flooded with procs and that would result in either wasted procs to maximize shatterlance or less shatter lance to maximize FoF usage. That would mean on single target you wouldnt need to delay Frozen Orb for Water Jet or vice versa unless you were at 3 stacks already for some reason. Is my logic wrong there somehow?

3. This last one kinda ties into question number 2. When using Frozen Orb into multiple mobs, I would imagine that it'd be best to forgo shatterlances until you are certain you aren't being flooded to 4 stacks of FoF rapidly and just spam Ice Lances until the generation slows down.

[monkeyofdoom]

1. Why is it an issue to start channeling Water Jet when already at 2-3 stacks of FoF? If I am finishing a cast of Frostbolt and it creates a 3rd FoF. I then channel Water Jet as I am casting the next Frostbolt, I would gain a Brain Freeze proc and just as Frostbolt finishes I toss out an ice lance to avoid a potential double FoF proc that would put me at 5 and wasting one. I would then continue the shatterlance weaving as I would normally. What am I missing that makes starting Water Jet while already at 2-3 stacks wrong?

Either 1) you're missing out on FOF procs, or 2) if you are FB/IL weaving the whole time then there's a much greater chance of munching! Remembering that every BF could proc a FOF and every Frostbolt during waterjet could proc 2 FOF. Therefore, starting at 2-3 means you have a much greater chance of munching, than starting at 0. Starting at 0 means you're likely to be further through the waterjet cast, before you get any risk of munching - while you build up your FOF procs.

[Voltairus]

1. Why is it an issue to start channeling Water Jet when already at 2-3 stacks of FoF? If I am finishing a cast of Frostbolt and it creates a 3rd FoF. I then channel Water Jet as I am casting the next Frostbolt, I would gain a Brain Freeze proc and just as Frostbolt finishes I toss out an ice lance to avoid a potential double FoF proc that would put me at 5 and wasting one. I would then continue the shatterlance weaving as I would normally. What am I missing that makes starting Water Jet while already at 2-3 stacks wrong?

Either 1) you're missing out on FOF procs, or 2) if you are FB/IL weaving the whole time then there's a much greater chance of munching! Remembering that every BF could proc a FOF and every Frostbolt during waterjet could proc 2 FOF. Therefore, starting at 2-3 means you have a much greater chance of munching, than starting at 0. Starting at 0 means you're likely to be further through the waterjet cast, before you get any risk of munching - while you build up your FOF procs.

If the general consensus is that we want to end our Water Jet cycle was upwards of 4 charges of FoF to continue shatterlance weaving for as long as possible, potentially all the way til the next Water Jet cycle, then doesn't that suggest we are prioritizing the damage of shatterlances over time rather than maximizing the sheer number of Ice Lnaces generated by being willing to much some in order to be at 4 stacks?

If that is the case, then I would imagine dumping 2-3 FoF charges in preparation for water jet would actually be harmful since those are two potential shatterlance combos we missed out on in order to lower the risk of munching total FoF generated.

That priority also gets even more confusing to figure out depending on when you get 2 charges of Brain Freeze and are at high stacks of FoF. Which do you prioritize? Risking efficiency of FoF generation or the damage of losing Brain Freeze procs? Also, how does Frozen Orb fit into the equation? Especially at the start of an encounter and those times when Water Jet and Frozen Orb line up. Do you prioritize efficiency of Shatterlances by just using Frozen Orb with water jet so that you can get it out of the way and get into the waving rotation quickly or the efficiency of FoF generating and only use Frozen Orb when you are out of Water Jet and at 2 or less stacks of FoF? Seems wasteful to hold onto Orb for those few occuring situations. That further complicates when you add in Prismatic Crystal and its timing limitation.

And all of that isn't taking into account all the potential missed chances for Unstable Magic procs from the lack of Frostbolt casts if you choose to prioritize dumping ice lances without the shatterlance bonus.

[Valounette]

1. Why is it an issue to start channeling Water Jet when already at 2-3 stacks of FoF? If I am finishing a cast of Frostbolt and it creates a 3rd FoF. I then channel Water Jet as I am casting the next Frostbolt, I would gain a Brain Freeze proc and just as Frostbolt finishes I toss out an ice lance to avoid a potential double FoF proc that would put me at 5 and wasting one. I would then continue the shatterlance weaving as I would normally. What am I missing that makes starting Water Jet while already at 2-3 stacks wrong?

Either 1) you're missing out on FOF procs, or 2) if you are FB/IL weaving the whole time then there's a much greater chance of munching! Remembering that every BF could proc a FOF and every Frostbolt during waterjet could proc 2 FOF. Therefore, starting at 2-3 means you have a much greater chance of munching, than starting at 0. Starting at 0 means you're likely to be further through the waterjet cast, before you get any risk of munching - while you build up your FOF procs.

If that is the case, then I would imagine dumping 2-3 FoF charges in preparation for water jet would actually be harmful since those are two potential shatterlance combos we missed out on in order to lower the risk of munching total FoF generated.

And all of that isn't taking into account all the potential missed chances for Unstable Magic procs from the lack of Frostbolt casts if you choose to prioritize dumping ice lances without the shatterlance bonus.

I don't think anyone is saying to dump 2-3 FoF charges with only Ice lance in preparation for Waterjet. Napkin math says that's a loss.

We're saying we think it's better to Shatterlance those FoF before the Waterjet, to start Waterjet without FoF. But this hasn't been proven with simulations yet.

That priority also gets even more confusing to figure out depending on when you get 2 charges of Brain Freeze and are at high stacks of FoF. Which do you prioritize? Risking efficiency of FoF generation or the damage of losing Brain Freeze procs?

Komma made a post somewhere saying that someone simmed it to be more DPS to use the BFF when at 2.

[mustreach]

From my own experiences with 4p and tome, I can say that having FoF charges up is almost never a problem. WJ will get you more than enough on its own and the remaining charges are usually enough to carry on to the next WJ, so I think it may be better to just throw out frozen orb whenever it is up as long as you don't already have more than 2 FoF up already. This gets incredibly messy with add spawns and such, so in those cases I just use orb for aoe damage and continue to shatterlance normally. With UM, casting FB/FFBs during those times doesn't seem like a loss.

While there are surely more FoF procs that could come up, holding off on orb until you have fewer than 2 FoF will make you wait a looong time before using it. My FoF uptime has been ~70-80% on fights since I got 4p last week, so it is rare to be without a proc where you can use orb ideally. Then again, I am new to simming and do not know how to personally model any of this, so take my anecdotes with a grain of salt. I would love for someone to prove me wrong so I could do more dps

[Breaktheice]

So there are a couple questions I'd like to ask in case I misread things and missed it or just flat out misunderstood.

1. Why is it an issue to start channeling Water Jet when already at 2-3 stacks of FoF? If I am finishing a cast of Frostbolt and it creates a 3rd FoF. I then channel Water Jet as I am casting the next Frostbolt, I would gain a Brain Freeze proc and just as Frostbolt finishes I toss out an ice lance to avoid a potential double FoF proc that would put me at 5 and wasting one. I would then continue the shatterlance weaving as I would normally. What am I missing that makes starting Water Jet while already at 2-3 stacks wrong?

Nothing wrong here actually. You can start a Water Jet at 2-3 stacks of FoF and be okay. You can even toss Frozen Orb out at 2-3 stacks of FoF and be okay.

[Valounette]

So there are a couple questions I'd like to ask in case I misread things and missed it or just flat out misunderstood.

1. Why is it an issue to start channeling Water Jet when already at 2-3 stacks of FoF? If I am finishing a cast of Frostbolt and it creates a 3rd FoF. I then channel Water Jet as I am casting the next Frostbolt, I would gain a Brain Freeze proc and just as Frostbolt finishes I toss out an ice lance to avoid a potential double FoF proc that would put me at 5 and wasting one. I would then continue the shatterlance weaving as I would normally. What am I missing that makes starting Water Jet while already at 2-3 stacks wrong?

Nothing wrong here actually. You can start a Water Jet at 2-3 stacks of FoF and be okay. You can even toss Frozen Orb out at 2-3 stacks of FoF and be okay.

I do both on occasion. Frozen Orb while holding up to 2-3 FoF (preferably 2 - since 3 is begging for munching due to Frozen Orb giving 1 FoF then still having to cast a Frostbolt next) is definitely the way to go, compared to using them up first and starting on zero FoF.

Though I'm not convinced with starting Water Jet at 2-3 FoF in every scenario. The only time I do this is if 1) I'm already at 3-4 FoF AND 2) I have a Frozen orb already hitting the target. With this much FoF generation, I can Waterjet with lots of FoF and just be finishing using up FoF by the time Waterjet next comes off cooldown - so no loss.

Using Waterjet on cooldown regardless of having FoF? Shrug, feels like I have way more Frostbolt spam ''shatterlance downtime'' with that style. Still not seen sims :@

[Kujo]

One thing I have not seen mentioned is icy veins, it's a good dps boost. So if you have 4pc without class trinket and are using lvl 100 thermal void.

Pop icy veins then fb and midway thru cast hit waterjet. Keep using fb until you get 4 fof then cast one il and one fb until water jet runs out. If you have brain freeze procs use one ffb after il until you use them up. Use the rest of your ice lance procs now but use frozen orb before you completely run out (give it time to reach target)

doing this should still have icy veins up and orb can fill in the time gap waiting for waterjet to cool down. On cooldown you can repeat this process to waterjet with icy veins for a second cycle but orb will be on cooldown after the second cycle.