Arcane Talent Comparisons, Stat Weights, Racials, Trinkets

[Caimion]

Yes, this uses the current BIS list. It could be worth some time figuring out if we can come up with a better gear/spec combo than the current UM_ROP_PC/Haste, but it's a little difficult due to the pet delay behaviour which isn't being modeled in SimulationCraft.

[Wilderness]

Anyone re-ran stat weights after the UM change in SimC? I'm seeing Mastery as a clear 2nd best stat after haste since that change.

[Methusula]

My sims with only 2 Pc at 100k iterations showed mastery=multistrike>haste. I am not about to change now though. My situation should just be temporary.

[Lak]

I got Haste=Mastery>Multi>crit>Vers

What also happened was that Frost came out higher than Arcane on ST, som I'm going full frost until further notice

[martyr]

I was running several sims last night testing a few talents with the latest build (with the fix to UM).

Noticed something interesting, in that NT was simming on par with SN and ahead of UM even in single target. NT pulled ahead almost immediately with 2 targets.

Two logs with NT, obviously they aren't ST fights, but I compared them against some top 20 logs.

Archimonde:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/6n ... amage-done" target="_blank

NT did 2.5m on Archimonde.

Picking 3 top 20 logs at random:
765k from UM.
1.79m from Supernova.
830k from UM.

I'm wondering if anyone else is seeing NT being a top talent over SN in single target on their sims?

[Stressball]

You can't just compare damage and pick what does most. UM will always be lowest because it has no cost, while NT requires a global every 12 seconds and SN a global every 25 plus one since you start with 2 charges.

NT should probably be in the ballpark of 2x the damage of SN since it costs roughly twice as many globals, which is not terribly far from where you see them in the logs you referenced.

For ST UM still sims top for me, but a lot will depend on your gear so I suppose it's possible we'll see gear combinations that favor NT. I think earlier we were seeing NT take over single target at high haste levels, but I'm not sure if that's still a thing.

[martyr]

You can't just compare damage and pick what does most. UM will always be lowest because it has no cost, while NT requires a global every 12 seconds and SN a global every 25 plus one since you start with 2 charges.

NT should probably be in the ballpark of 2x the damage of SN since it costs roughly twice as many globals, which is not terribly far from where you see them in the logs you referenced.

For ST UM still sims top for me, but a lot will depend on your gear so I suppose it's possible we'll see gear combinations that favor NT. I think earlier we were seeing NT take over single target at high haste levels, but I'm not sure if that's still a thing.

I realize it's not a direct comparison. It's just the only evidence I have outside of sims. The most updated SimC I had with the UM fix (think it was 7/11) was showing NT as tops for me in ST. Hadn't seen a discussion of it, figured I'd post about it here and see if anyone else was seeing something similar.

[Caimion]

I think this reinforces the importance of personal sims! At your particular gear level it indeed looks like NT outperforms UM - I imported your character and found the same thing.

My hypothesis would be that this is result is due to your particular distribution of haste vs mastery (almost 2x more Haste than Mastery), plus berserking and Darmac's. I ran a quick stat plot with your toon and in a UM spec you have mastery > crit = haste = multistrike. If you swap a few enchants to mastery you may find a level of haste vs mastery where UM again outperforms NT - but if you're happy with NT, I'd say keep it!

[Komma]

Anyone re-ran stat weights after the UM change in SimC? I'm seeing Mastery as a clear 2nd best stat after haste since that change.

I think they already were.

For ST UM still sims top for me, but a lot will depend on your gear so I suppose it's possible we'll see gear combinations that favor NT. I think earlier we were seeing NT take over single target at high haste levels, but I'm not sure if that's still a thing.

As mentioned in a previous post I made, NT has extremely strong haste scaling. It wouldn't surprise me if NT pulled ahead for certain edge case profiles with abnormally high haste and no class trinket. You want to make sure that everything else is in order though - are glyphs configured correctly? Are trinkets being properly used?

Link to an old post I made in reply to Valounette on the strong haste scaling of NT: http://altered-time.com/forum/viewtopic ... +NT#p13181" target="_blank

[martyr]

Anyone re-ran stat weights after the UM change in SimC? I'm seeing Mastery as a clear 2nd best stat after haste since that change.

I think they already were.

For ST UM still sims top for me, but a lot will depend on your gear so I suppose it's possible we'll see gear combinations that favor NT. I think earlier we were seeing NT take over single target at high haste levels, but I'm not sure if that's still a thing.

As mentioned in a previous post I made, NT has extremely strong haste scaling. It wouldn't surprise me if NT pulled ahead for certain edge case profiles with abnormally high haste and no class trinket. You want to make sure that everything else is in order though - are glyphs configured correctly? Are trinkets being properly used?

Link to an old post I made in reply to Valounette on the strong haste scaling of NT: http://altered-time.com/forum/viewtopic ... +NT#p13181" target="_blank

So my question then is, is 2k haste an edge profile?

I did the whole gem / enchant Haste thing based on UM on the previous SimC builds. After the fix I'm sitting on 2045 Haste and NT sims better than SN even in ST. I don't really consider it to be a ridiculous amount of haste but was planning to swap to UM once I have Tome.

[Komma]

NT > SN is normal at some (unknown) level of haste. You don't gain SN usages with haste, and it only reduces the GCD. NT on the other hand gains extra ticks, reduces your casting time spent on it, and also increases uptime due to higher frequency of 4AC windows for reapplying it.

As for whether that explains what is happening with your profile, I encourage you to investigate and come back to post the results - maybe in a new thread!

[Festen]

So, UM is still ahead on ST fights with Tome?

EDIT: I sim UM better for me.

[Frosted]

Talents in OP updated with the UM fix.

I removed priority DPS because the sim isn't really optimized for it, and did not do a stat priority generation for each talent selection due to the # of iterations it requires per talent combination to do.

[Frosted]

Added pairwise trinket comparisons.

[Embers]

So with your simplified stat scaling Frosted of Int > Haste > Mastery after 1300 rating does this mean that we needed worry about some kind of cap on Haste where it becomes less beneficial, and all of our enchants and gems should be Haste to get as much as we can?

I'm at 26% Haste right now which I was under the impression was the general area you'd want to be because going past that Haste lost its value. If I switched over to Haste enchants, I could get slightly over 30% raid buffed, with this simplified stat scaling does that means this would be ideal? And using Warsong on top of it for more?

[Chev]

Yes. 1300 (20% raid buffed) is just after the haste break point allowing the 2T18 pets get an extra hit in while they are still up.

Unfortunately these pets also suffer from lag every now and then so the 25-26% raid buffed haste recommendation is to counter that lag. You wont really see the higher value reflected in the Sims because the program has not been built replicate the pet lag.

After 25-26% Haste is not as effective as other stats, especially now that UM has had its AM proc generation revised.

[Komma]

After 25-26% Haste is not as effective as other stats, especially now that UM has had its AM proc generation revised.

I don't understand why this seems to be an often repeated belief, when it isn't true. Haste is stronger even after adding an extra attack to pets, due to a mix of 4T18, UM and the class trinket. It doesn't "fall behind".

[hawk9378]

The haste breakpoint of 26 to 27% is that with haste buff or without, or rather, raid buffed or not

[Mantis]

There is no need to worry about haste breakpoints because haste doesn't fall behind mastery, as Komma said.

[Embers]

After 25-26% Haste is not as effective as other stats, especially now that UM has had its AM proc generation revised.

I don't understand why this seems to be an often repeated belief, when it isn't true. Haste is stronger even after adding an extra attack to pets, due to a mix of 4T18, UM and the class trinket. It doesn't "fall behind".

This is good to hear because I'll be way ahead on Haste than the BiS profiles on Heroic and at least the start of Mythic because I was able to craft Haste/Mastery Helm, Wrists, and Boots and get them to 715.

Even with the Mastery enchants and gems, Unstable Magic is already simming higher for me than Supernova.