Frost Talents, Stat Weights, Racials, Trinkets, FAQ

[Frosted]

Yes

[FabioAggra]

Sorry if this has been answered before but I couldn't find it. Do the trinket sims in the first page are up to date with the recent (semi-recent?) nerfs to the Archimonde trinket?

Thank you very much

[Breaktheice]

^You can check that via the APL of the default Frost mage profile.

My question is, been simming my mage without glyphed Icy Veins on Frost Bomb builds and it actually does better than with glyphed Icy Veins? Anyone else seeing this?

Edit > Granted, Bomb doesn't inherit MS but still... wanted to confirm if this is normal

Komma was looking into different secondaries and how they are valued with different talent setups and noticed that haste is valued much higher for Fbomb set up than other talent setups(with 4pc+Tome, I believe was the background the data was collected in). I'm not certain yet that it's so good that it's > MS and worth unglyphing for, but it could be possible and is something that is being looked into currently.

Ty.

I also noticed in some cases, the Haste enchant to weapon beats the Multistrike option. AMR certainly thinks so, and will actually encourage you to (in some cases) go for the Haste enchant over the Multistrike one, even if you give Multistrike a higher weight. Since AMR is just a calculator, I think the suggestion comes from the fact that the Multistrike buff only lasts 6 seconds and needs to stack twice to beat the Haste buff (which lasts 10 seconds but decrements every second).

I did some sims on myself, and with Unstable Magic, Incanter's Flow, and Thermal Void, I seem to have better consistent results with the Haste enchant over the Multistrike.

The Bomb Haste build with unglyphed IV is the one I'm curious about though.

[Boomtastic]

Haste sims higher than multi for me as well using UM,IF,PC/TV set up however my logic is that while haste may in fact be better for frost at high gear levels the mark of the frostwolf enchant is always superior for a weapon because of our ability to snapshot and use of brain freeze and icelance much better than any sim is able to which gets the extra value out of mark of the Frostwolf. I am currently testing if this theory extends to multistrike in general or if indeed static haste is the best option for high end frost and would value some input on this topic. Here is my character's armoury http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/r ... tic/simple" target="_blank and these are the scaling factors I am getting (haste above multi with tv or pc) http://2.chart.apis.google.com/chart?ch ... 010,11.208&" target="_blank

[FabioAggra]

Anyone else has tried the BiS feature from Ask Mr Robot? The trinket information is not the same as the one provided here. They argue that the BiS trinket setup for frost is Gaze + Prophecy, and not Tome. I'm confused.. Which one is more accurate?

[arcangnom]

Anyone looking into unglyphed Icy Veins with Thermal Void? On dummies I find I can typically get 14 FoF-Ice Lance casts in during Icy Veins with the glyph, versus 24 without the glyph. This is entering into Icy Veins mid-Water Jet with 4 stacks of IL, 4 set, and Tome (Shatterlancing all Ice Lances, and still dumping brain freezes).

[Frosted]

^You can check that via the APL of the default Frost mage profile.

My question is, been simming my mage without glyphed Icy Veins on Frost Bomb builds and it actually does better than with glyphed Icy Veins? Anyone else seeing this?

Edit > Granted, Bomb doesn't inherit MS but still... wanted to confirm if this is normal

Komma was looking into different secondaries and how they are valued with different talent setups and noticed that haste is valued much higher for Fbomb set up than other talent setups(with 4pc+Tome, I believe was the background the data was collected in). I'm not certain yet that it's so good that it's > MS and worth unglyphing for, but it could be possible and is something that is being looked into currently.

Ty.

I also noticed in some cases, the Haste enchant to weapon beats the Multistrike option. AMR certainly thinks so, and will actually encourage you to (in some cases) go for the Haste enchant over the Multistrike one, even if you give Multistrike a higher weight. Since AMR is just a calculator, I think the suggestion comes from the fact that the Multistrike buff only lasts 6 seconds and needs to stack twice to beat the Haste buff (which lasts 10 seconds but decrements every second).

I did some sims on myself, and with Unstable Magic, Incanter's Flow, and Thermal Void, I seem to have better consistent results with the Haste enchant over the Multistrike.

The Bomb Haste build with unglyphed IV is the one I'm curious about though.

If you look at the weights I have posted pretty much everyone of the Fbomb profiles has Haste worth the most. However, when I try unglyphing it's a DPS loss. Not sure what you're doing to get it to be a DPS gain. Post a pastebin of your input and the SimC version you're using?

[Frosted]

Haste sims higher than multi for me as well using UM,IF,PC/TV set up however my logic is that while haste may in fact be better for frost at high gear levels the mark of the frostwolf enchant is always superior for a weapon because of our ability to snapshot and use of brain freeze and icelance much better than any sim is able to which gets the extra value out of mark of the Frostwolf. I am currently testing if this theory extends to multistrike in general or if indeed static haste is the best option for high end frost and would value some input on this topic. Here is my character's armoury http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/r ... tic/simple" target="_blank and these are the scaling factors I am getting

"snapshot and use brainfreeze and ice lance much better than any sim is able to"

what kind of nonsense is this? What does this even mean? Testing what? How? ??

[Frosted]

Anyone else has tried the BiS feature from Ask Mr Robot? The trinket information is not the same as the one provided here. They argue that the BiS trinket setup for frost is Gaze + Prophecy, and not Tome. I'm confused.. Which one is more accurate?

AMR does trinkets in a way completely different than SimC, and honestly their weights are not the best. They dont take into account the way trinkets interact with eachother, and they average out the proc effects on trinkets. It's a really bad way to judge RPPM styled trinkets, Tome trinket, and damage proc trinkets.

[Faustkampf]

I've been tying Comet Storm exclusively to Mark of Doom procs on aoe fights with some success (Xhul, Mannoroth, Archimonde, etc.). Wondering if it overtakes TV on such fights?

Here's a log, Doom Nova did 16.85% of my dps: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/ct ... source=232" target="_blank

Has anyone tried this and can share their experience with us?

On Archimonde I get better results with Comet Storm than with Thermal Void, but I use CmS on CD.

[FabioAggra]

Anyone else has tried the BiS feature from Ask Mr Robot? The trinket information is not the same as the one provided here. They argue that the BiS trinket setup for frost is Gaze + Prophecy, and not Tome. I'm confused.. Which one is more accurate?

AMR does trinkets in a way completely different than SimC, and honestly their weights are not the best. They dont take into account the way trinkets interact with eachother, and they average out the proc effects on trinkets. It's a really bad way to judge RPPM styled trinkets, Tome trinket, and damage proc trinkets.

Hey Frosted thank you very much for your answer really appreciate your time! Thanks.

[Frozenbro]

i have a doubt, i recently got PoF heroic with personal loot and i still have my bonus roll, should i save it for heroic archi (i havent killed it yet, need to pug it since my guildies dont raid that much) or should i use it on heroic iskar? i dont know if arch trinket+PoF ice lance weaving is that superior to Gaze+PoF using ice lance on every FoF, thanks in advance

[Rinoa]

Try to avoid double posting, your question is already being discussed and answered here: http://www.altered-time.com/forum/viewt ... =17&t=1828" target="_blank

We're the same people reading both threads.

[Ilmatar]

I'm sorry, for riding this dead horse a bit more, but it feels so strange, that this guide (the simmed results in this guide) advises use of ToSW and UGoS, while AMR rates PoF so very high!
Of course Frosted already explained, that AMR misses the interaction between the trinkets, and the way they average out the RPPM might be suspicious.
=> Could someone maybe explain the interaction between the trinkets?

My AMR Results
1. 700 Prophecy of Fear +4490 Trinket - Mannoroth - Hellfire Citadel
2. 705 Tome of Shifting Words +775 Trinket - Archimonde - Hellfire Citadel
3. 695 Unblinking Gaze of Sethe Equipped Trinket - Shadow-Lord Iskar - Hellfire Citadel

[Chev]

AMR is not that great at predicting trinkets. The reason for this is it uses a gear score to rank items and this is calculated using the flat values or possibly even an average of stats for a minute.

E.g. Your stat values Int = 1 and crit = 0.8. A trinket with 220 Int and 130 crit would have a gear score of 1 x 220 + 130 * 0.8 = 220 + 104 = 324.

This is fine for a trinket which just has flat values and no procs but when it does have a proc there is no way in this formula to factor in that proc. E.g. How well the proc lines up with PC. Another example is if the trinket offers a damage modifier rather than extra stats. For this reason you want to sim your self to see how the trinkets compare when being used to the talents you have selected or if you want a rough guide, you can use the trinket list which has been provided in the OP.

[Rabona]

I remember that AMR advised me to get the mastery tank trinket as BiS in brf. That hurt my trust into their trinket rankings a little bit (I assume that they undervalue procc trinkets drastically).
And besides, if you plan to play Arcane as your main/-second spec you will want to have all three trinkets anyway.
I just took a look at their generic mage profiles, seems like they actually value mythic Tome a lot below nhc Gaze/PoF, so I guess it's save to say that you better ignore their trinket ranking.


I'm not sure if there is much interaction between the trinkets, maybe in the way that you would trigger Doom Nova more often without Tome, since you could just fire all your proccs into it, but since Tome is kinda mandatory as Frost that won't come into effect when comparing possible trinket setups.

[Norrbert]

According to what is the unblinking gaze of sethe better than PoF? Pof has more intel, and for me, deal slighlty more damage.

So, did I miss something or?

[Mortos]

If I am not mistaken The problem of PoF is that it interact in a bad way with the Tome Shatterlance weaving

PoF works best if when you proc it you shot out all your Instant spells so you get the full value out of it
but since you will ALWAYS cast Frostbolt before an FoF proc to maximise Tome
then the value of PoF goes down

[Mortos]

I have a question though on the Trinkets

I understand that the Trinket compare is for 1 Target only
but most of HFC is multi target
and I find that i am doing more dmg with PoF+Gaze then with Gaze+Tome
exactly because the fact that I can forgo the Frostbolt cast before the FoF proc and then to shot FoF when the Adds are there
especially when Adds die relatively fast and still have Prio (like Kilrog)

though I am not sure I am correct, because Tome bonus will also go to the Split Lance that is cast via Glyph so it does add to your damage with 2 Targets as well

My question is at how many Targets, or at how Many uptime does Tome loss is value, if at all
thank you

[Fruzbite]

I just got my 4 piece and Archimonde trinket this week. I know that for Arcane Haste is now weighted heavier than Mastery, but when I look around at a lot of armory profiles for high performing frost mages, I am also seeing Haste Enchants on their armor/weapons. Now it could just be that they're favoring gearing for Arcane, but it kind of makes sense that Haste would be even better for Frost now because of the FB/IL weaving you do with 4piece & trinket. I ran a SimC with my Multistrike enchants and then another with a swap for Haste enchants. I'm seeing about a 900 dps increase overall, just wondering what everyone else's thoughts are on this.