Frost Talents, Stat Weights, Racials, Trinkets, FAQ

[Frosted]

According to what is the unblinking gaze of sethe better than PoF? Pof has more intel, and for me, deal slighlty more damage.

So, did I miss something or?

./shrug, that's how the sim turns out.

If you find logs that show discrepancies between sim trinket damage and in game, link them so it can be looked into.

I have a question though on the Trinkets

I understand that the Trinket compare is for 1 Target only
but most of HFC is multi target
and I find that i am doing more dmg with PoF+Gaze then with Gaze+Tome
exactly because the fact that I can forgo the Frostbolt cast before the FoF proc and then to shot FoF when the Adds are there
especially when Adds die relatively fast and still have Prio (like Kilrog)

though I am not sure I am correct, because Tome bonus will also go to the Split Lance that is cast via Glyph so it does add to your damage with 2 Targets as well

My question is at how many Targets, or at how Many uptime does Tome loss is value, if at all
thank you

You're probably playing lance weaving poorly. It's still very strong on 2targets. If you're not keeping on top of your FoF generation or weaving, it's not going to be a strong trinket.

I just got my 4 piece and Archimonde trinket this week. I know that for Arcane Haste is now weighted heavier than Mastery, but when I look around at a lot of armory profiles for high performing frost mages, I am also seeing Haste Enchants on their armor/weapons. Now it could just be that they're favoring gearing for Arcane, but it kind of makes sense that Haste would be even better for Frost now because of the FB/IL weaving you do with 4piece & trinket. I ran a SimC with my Multistrike enchants and then another with a swap for Haste enchants. I'm seeing about a 900 dps increase overall, just wondering what everyone else's thoughts are on this.

You're seeing MS > Haste, what exactly are you wondering about? This is pretty standard unless you're running something like Fbomb.

[Breaktheice]

./shrug, that's how the sim turns out.

Frost's current APL isn't optimized for Mark of Doom, right?

[Mortos]

You're probably playing lance weaving poorly. It's still very strong on 2targets. If you're not keeping on top of your FoF generation or weaving, it's not going to be a strong trinket.

I didn't ask About 2 Targets, I asked about More then 2 Targets
at what Point do you prefer the AoE Trinkets over Tome

[Fruzbite]

I just got my 4 piece and Archimonde trinket this week. I know that for Arcane Haste is now weighted heavier than Mastery, but when I look around at a lot of armory profiles for high performing frost mages, I am also seeing Haste Enchants on their armor/weapons. Now it could just be that they're favoring gearing for Arcane, but it kind of makes sense that Haste would be even better for Frost now because of the FB/IL weaving you do with 4piece & trinket. I ran a SimC with my Multistrike enchants and then another with a swap for Haste enchants. I'm seeing about a 900 dps increase overall, just wondering what everyone else's thoughts are on this.

You're seeing MS > Haste, what exactly are you wondering about? This is pretty standard unless you're running something like Fbomb.

No, I'm seeing Haste gems/enchants > MS gems/enchants when I Sim. Is that the new stat priority once you have 4pc/archi trinket? Simple question really.

[Frosted]

./shrug, that's how the sim turns out.

Frost's current APL isn't optimized for Mark of Doom, right?

I suppose it's technically not. What kind of optimizations would you try? I could try to make improvements to the PoF profile.

I just got my 4 piece and Archimonde trinket this week. I know that for Arcane Haste is now weighted heavier than Mastery, but when I look around at a lot of armory profiles for high performing frost mages, I am also seeing Haste Enchants on their armor/weapons. Now it could just be that they're favoring gearing for Arcane, but it kind of makes sense that Haste would be even better for Frost now because of the FB/IL weaving you do with 4piece & trinket. I ran a SimC with my Multistrike enchants and then another with a swap for Haste enchants. I'm seeing about a 900 dps increase overall, just wondering what everyone else's thoughts are on this.

You're seeing MS > Haste, what exactly are you wondering about? This is pretty standard unless you're running something like Fbomb.

No, I'm seeing Haste gems/enchants > MS gems/enchants when I Sim. Is that the new stat priority once you have 4pc/archi trinket? Simple question really.

If it's simple I'm sure I don't have to spend any time thinking about it then!

You're probably playing lance weaving poorly. It's still very strong on 2targets. If you're not keeping on top of your FoF generation or weaving, it's not going to be a strong trinket.

I didn't ask About 2 Targets, I asked about More then 2 Targets
at what Point do you prefer the AoE Trinkets over Tome

Ah, sorry. I misunderstood. I'll see if i can put together some trinket AoE sims this afternoon and get back to you with an anwser.

[Mortiferus]

./shrug, that's how the sim turns out.

Frost's current APL isn't optimized for Mark of Doom, right?

I suppose it's technically not. What kind of optimizations would you try? I could try to make improvements to the PoF profile.

Assuming PC, I imagine it's in the opener (much like with Arcane APL). Also, I'd be interested to see how CmS performs in an optimized APL. I've flirted with holding CmS for MoD procs. My hunch is it's not really better, but CmS certainly feels quite powerful in multi-target fights when combined with PoF.

[Breaktheice]

No, I'm seeing Haste gems/enchants > MS gems/enchants when I Sim. Is that the new stat priority once you have 4pc/archi trinket? Simple question really.

This is true. Running 4 PC + Archie trinket, a Haste build usually allows for more room in both FoF generation and consumption rates. It however does not (in my personal tests) favor dropping glyphed Icy Veins though.

[Fruzbite]

No, I'm seeing Haste gems/enchants > MS gems/enchants when I Sim. Is that the new stat priority once you have 4pc/archi trinket? Simple question really.

This is true. Running 4 PC + Archie trinket, a Haste build usually allows for more room in both FoF generation and consumption rates. It however does not (in my personal tests) favor dropping glyphed Icy Veins though.

Thanks! I haven't seen it explicitly stated that way, so I was hesitant to switch.

[Breaktheice]

No, I'm seeing Haste gems/enchants > MS gems/enchants when I Sim. Is that the new stat priority once you have 4pc/archi trinket? Simple question really.

This is true. Running 4 PC + Archie trinket, a Haste build usually allows for more room in both FoF generation and consumption rates. It however does not (in my personal tests) favor dropping glyphed Icy Veins though.

Thanks! I haven't seen it explicitly stated that way, so I was hesitant to switch.

You'll notice it pull ahead on 2 target cleave more than ST. I haven't done a ST test on Frost in forever. Using the trinkets I have, the 3 best results I got were (on 2 target cleave):

1. + Haste Build
+ UM & TV
+ PoF + Archie trinkets
97389.4 DPS

2. + Haste Build
+ UM & TV
+ Gaze + Archie trinkets
97351.6

3. + Haste Build
+ UM & TV
+ Gaze + PoF trinkets
94620.7

My Archie trinket is just Normal though, I figure those sims should pull way ahead if I get Heroic. In either event, they outpace Multistrike sims.

[Frosted]

Are you talking haste > ms for all talents? I've only seen it on ST with Fbomb builds. On 2 targets though haste > * sounds in line with what I was seeing.

[Breaktheice]

Have I tested all talent combos with the default Frost profile? No.
Do I run tests on my toon with my gear and consistently find Haste beating MS, even on some ST setups? Yes.

For example, my current armory: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/t ... ice/simple" target="_blank

Haste build (aka how I'm gemmed/enchanted now) -> ST = 68956.7
Multistrike build -> ST = 68488.5

Negligible but noticeable edge on Haste build.

Do I advocate a Haste build for all Frost mages? No, because I haven't tested it on all talent combinations and I only work with the gear I have. I did PM Komma a while back posting some of my other results showing Haste consistently beating out Multistrike, albeit narrowly. He said he wasn't surprised, for reasons I already pointed out.

Given how Arcane's ST is so prominent and the 4 PC does need Haste to work, I just went for a Haste build for both Arcane/Frost setups. I don't play Arcane a lot, but I don't think my Frost setup has taken a hit from it, either.

I think the most apparent reason is with a Multistrike build, you're sometimes so slow, you risk procs running out because you can't weave them off quick enough.

Check it out



I almost run out of procs even though I don't stop casting with a Haste build. With a Multistrike build, it becomes insanely hard weaving off everything quick enough. I often find myself sometimes throwing out Frozen Orb when I have 1-2 FoF simply to refresh them so that they don't expire, because there's not enough time to go Frostbolt > Ice Lance > Frostbolt > Ice Lance.

[Frosted]

No clue what you're doing, but I have MS enchants doing more DPS with your profile.

67901 50.1% ms_profile
67666 49.9% Breaktheice

[Breaktheice]

^Try MS 200? It's the only thing I change.
Iterations 25k, Length 350 sec, Variation 20%.
V 620-02 simcraft.

Re-ran

Haste:


Multi:

[Frosted]

MS 200...? I replaced all of your enchants with MS ones, and the weapon with frost wolf

http://pastebin.com/yeKPv5mL" target="_blank

[Breaktheice]

MS as in latency/world lag. I switch it to 200 to give an accurate sim to the latency I have in raid.

I do the same thing you do otherwise, change all enchants/gems to multistrike and switch warsong to frostwolf.

Edit > Never mind, found my error. Typed Frostwolf as Frotswolf so it was simming MS without a weapon enchant. Does indeed pull ahead on ST after I fixed it.

[Frosted]

Okydokie

[Breaktheice]

BTW, has anyone looked into MI vs IF on ST with legendary ring? Does MI pull ahead since ring lines up with the cooldown of MI perfectly?

Or am I tardy to this party?

[Frosted]

IF/RoP are still significantly better.

[Valounette]

Last time I ran 2target UM TV sims during Hellfire Council progression, while having fairly standard gear, multistrike simmed as my 3rd-4th stat, with Haste first. I re-enchanted full haste and simulated again. Now haste was the lowest stat and multistrike highest by far. Ran a reforge plot, there were very tiny points which Haste spiked ahead but Multi was largely superior...

That said, no matter what I did, Mark of Warsong was the best weapon enchant, beating mark of the frostwolf by 300dps (for me!!!). With Mark of Warsong and multistrike enchants, multistrike still simmed the best, always.

So for what it's worth... maybe try again with only changing your weapon enchants!

[Fruzbite]

Given how Arcane's ST is so prominent and the 4 PC does need Haste to work, I just went for a Haste build for both Arcane/Frost setups. I don't play Arcane a lot, but I don't think my Frost setup has taken a hit from it, either.

^^ This is what I was hypothesizing is the case with a lot of top performing mages these days. You can simply switch to Arcane and perform extremely well in single target fights, and not have to invest in 2 sets of gear for enchants.