34 seconds into pull first proc

[Komma]

You misunderstood what I said. I wasn't talking about dummies there because the thread established RPPM trinkets on them don't reflect a boss pull. Unless you are certain no quirks exist in the game.

As far as I am aware, no "quirks" have been identified to cause the kind of behavior that is being discussed in this thread. In fact, that's exactly why such a thread exists!

Of course I cannot be certain that no "quirks" exist in the game. Blizzard can't be sure either, and that's why they call them "bugs". However, it doesn't make a lot of sense to hypothesize about "quirks" we've never heard of, when we don't really have a reason to believe they exist.

There are a lot of simple reasons that could potentially explain why the trinket didn't proc according to the log, even though we haven't heard it happen to anyone else yet. It could have procced on the same server tick the mob died. The mob it procced on could have been out of combat log range. The proc event could have been lost due to packet loss. Or as I mentioned, maybe it has something to do with immunity effects such as glyphed Ice Block. All of these are legitimate but unlikely solutions that make more sense than to hypothesize about some unknown "quirks".

[Curnivore]

Yes, they may be bugs, I don't get the need for the excessive sarcasm:P

I was thinking that in that case the stomach mechanic might do it.

It pulls people in and it might not register a new pull properly.

[Komma]

Yeah, I thought about that one too. The problem is, the stomach actually doesn't trigger a zone change event, unlike Garrosh phases, ie. It doesn't trigger a loading screen. Since it's a direct teleportation, it seems unlikely to confuse the trinket.

Then there's the issue that he zoned into the instance after the previous wipe, and he wasn't sent down after the feast. I tried to find a second log from a separate logger in the same raid to see if there's a separate account of what happened, but there are none.

I guess this will remain a mystery until someone else catches it in another log.

[Curnivore]

Curious thing is that the log does list the initial doom procs (no need to look at actual doom damage) so it couldn't proc on something visible and then be lost that way.

His nova might be hitting invisible targets perhaps intended for the stomach but would the proc be hidden in logs?

What was the process that would make frost nova hide it in your opinion?

[Rinoa]

Just as a small addition, this is something that happened quite frequently when the 3-trinket crap was still around. If you swapped from Tome -> PoF too close to the pull, say ~2 seconds or below, it seems PoF didn't reset properly and get the appopriate initial proc chance on the boss fight. This lead to some frustration among certain players so we ended up playing it safe and equipping it about 2.5-3s before the pull which lead to it never proccing 15+ seconds in.

[DyLemma]

It was from a few days ago just messing around in random pugs, and I never used the 3 trinket trick because I was still on progression about a month ago, and I never did any heroic rankings groups. Not the case. It's not that I care about it not procing, because I don't, just there for data and a mystery I suppose.

[Rinoa]

I just posted it for more context.

[skiz]

If i understood correctly, rppm is basically a growing proc chance of your trinket
Lets say the trinket has a 0.9 proc per minute basic, that would mean, every 66 sec (?) the trinket should be active. To achieve that, for every sec your trinket didn't proc the chance grows. When you start the fight against a dummy after equiping the trinket this chance is minimal. For every second you stand there, the chance grows until after about 66 sec (this is no guarantee) your trinket procs. If you have the trinket equiped for 5 mins the proc chance is already at its max, because it is over 66 sec since your last proc, pretty much guaranteeing you a proc.

For boss fights Blizzard implemented a mechanic, where entering a combat gives your trinket a basic proc chance, as if you were out of fight for lets say 60 sec, which gives a wiggle room of 6 sec for your trinket to procc, to the point where a procc on your first cast is not guaranteed, but at least it should proc in the first 10 sec or so.

You got the idea behind it, numbers are a bit off.

Now comes the question why this happened with no proc for 34 sec, either he should never buy a lottery ticket, cause he is the one in a million with the worst luck ever, OR there is/was something preventing his trinket proc, which should not be possible

May just be an unlucky log. The earliest guaranteed procc for arcane should happen after ~225 seconds. Generally, you do expect that procc to happen way earlier. Anyway, that guy drops PC before casting anything. Opening like that you should run felmouth frenzy, which will make such situations less likely.

Dodging a spell impact with Iceblock should not change anything here. But who knows?

Edit: The shadow priest Razormn had his trinket proc at 0:00.217 on his first cast, the trinket from the frost mage Kurênai proced at 0:04.310 which is his 2nd Frostbolt and 3rd cast total (frozen orbed before). Both are normal and what you would expect

Both shadow and Frostmages using different RPPM values for frost that is 1.5 instead of 0.9. Generally, frostmages PoF proccs on the first spell hitting the boss. (Waterlemental can not procc it, and frozen orb is buggy with rppm proccs.)

[Curnivore]

It's a pretty high chance for arcane too though. What's the chance to not proc after 10 hits by the way? Got the formula handy? :>

update: In like 20-30 tests it always procs on 1st or 2nd.

[Curnivore]

OK, I may be onto something here. Starting on Crystal alone might not proc it. The start is a combination of presence of mind and berserking and arcane power if that is relevant.

This is after a long wait after it's equipped or being in combat so it can't be a "delay not being enough" thing.

update: Hrm, I wonder if it's related to crystal not being able to hit something.

update: I'll go to ICC for more solid tests.

update: OK, crystal alone can proc it normally (and at the start) without even any target near it after a full reset on a boss (that didn't proc it). I only used AB though, I want to try the full burn on it.

update: That doesn't reliably reproduce it either. Though it does remain obvious that if one starts on a crystal before a boss is pulled, he may be not proc it initially because it's not reset yet. Though it should proc after the boss is agroed.

[Komma]

As you've noticed, It's pretty much mathematically impossible to not proc the trinket within 30 seconds, under normal circumstances. This is pretty much regardless of trinket swapping shenanigans.

What was the process that would make frost nova hide it in your opinion?

Either the passive Frost Nova did something wonky with it, or maybe the Immunity from glyphed Ice Block is not a normal immunity and flagged to do funky things with RPPM resets. That would be easy to test in ICC with a friend though.

[Curnivore]

New theory(conjecture): Unstable Magic might be related. If the aoe effect hits nothing could it lose a PoF proc?

[Komma]

No, I don't think that is likely. Unstable Magic has only been observed to proc PoF when it hits something, and your theory would apply on many, many other fights that we've never seen this happen on.

Usually it is better to start off with data, instead of trying to hypothesize around puffs of smoke. The first step is to reproduce this "30 seconds without a proc" thing. Off to ICC! (Or HFC Gorefiend, whatever works)

P.S. Sadly I am on vacation for another few days.

[Curnivore]

Well I will only add then that this thing seems to never proc on certain low HP targets. I hit those spectral undead NPCs from the Garrison decorations right now and it never procs on them. They have 40 HP.

I wonder if some kind of target of that sort exists there. Even if that's true one would have to see if it would prevent the boss getting the proc.

[Curnivore]

update: It's not special to those pets. It never procs on whatever just dies on the the 1st hit in Mulgore either; on the log at least.

update: If I then drop a crystal down it will likely not proc on it. That means it did get lost on the low HP mobs.

[yungg]

hmm, only time I can remember not having POF proc within the first few casts is when I was attacking the little caged prisoners in gorefiends room to try to pull with 4 charges.

not sure if thats what you did OP.

just went back through my logs, and I misremembered. I can't find a pull where i didnt have pof on pull

[DyLemma]

Nope I've never ever attacked the caged prisoners, the proc was just super delayed or lost on pull, who knows.

[Curnivore]

It might be just a server bug losing the data rarely.

[SH4D0WS1N]

I know it's happened at least once, and I think it's happened a total of twice to me, but I've had situations where I won't get a proc until after my AP ended. I'm not sure if it was quite 30 seconds (or if just after AP it proccing isn't too out of the question), but I know I've had the trinket not proc in my opener before. I don't have the patience to sift through a thousand or so logs, as I don't even have the slightest clue as to which boss/week it happened on.

I should note that I don't do anything funky to try and cheese.

[Firey]

This happened to me on tyrant this week actually. With fire and GSR.

We pulled boss to reset CD's after trash and for some reason logs showed that we never left combat with the boss for some reason from the reset > respawn > pull.

waited for the entire ring duration for my trinket to proc but it never did.


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