Fire Mages are alive again (Updated for 6.2.3)

[Blutastic]

You want 100% on boss too. So the setup for pc cannot fail.

How would it fail?

If the pre-pull cast pyro crits and sandmans procs, you want the first fireball to crit afterwards so you can start your pc chain asap since teammates prolly pressed leg ring. So if that doesnt crit it takes approx 2 sec off the precious leg ring buff:)

Thx a lot for answer!

[Curnivore]

You want 100% on boss too. So the setup for pc cannot fail.

How would it fail?

If the pre-pull cast pyro crits and sandmans procs, you want the first fireball to crit

Won't it be best to drop PC down at that point? I know FB may be already queued at that point but it may be a benefit even in practice.

[Glitzerbling]

You only drop pc with heating up and hotstreak up. If you dont have 100% crit you cant q up pc after the fireball that gives you HU since the fireball might not crit and then you need to cast an extra fb into pc, which might push your second db or bw too far out, effectively losing out on dps. Always remember: if something can go wrong, then something will go wrong.

Now with the 100% crit you cast fb after HS, q up pc and start burst. Without 100% you cast fb after HS and q up another fb which you interrupt, if the first fb crit. One gcd wasted.

Remember it is 1.6% crit we are talking about.

[Blutastic]

You only drop pc with heating up and hotstreak up. If you dont have 100% crit you cant q up pc after the fireball that gives you HU since the fireball might not crit and then you need to cast an extra fb into pc, which might push your second db or bw too far out, effectively losing out on dps. Always remember: if something can go wrong, then something will go wrong.

Now with the 100% crit you cast fb after HS, q up pc and start burst. Without 100% you cast fb after HS and q up another fb which you interrupt, if the first fb crit. One gcd wasted.

Remember it is 1.6% crit we are talking about.

When i read this and other replies i realize that i count on this fb to crit just as you say, and it is very important to have this security to be able to plan the burst process.

If i remake the same calculation as my previous post i come to 2423,3 crit rating, which confirmes pretty exactly as you guys say - 47,030 % crit.

So if i get over this percentage i could just as well transfer the overflow to mastery by changing enchants or changing gear?

[Curnivore]

You only drop pc with heating up and hotstreak up. If you dont have 100% crit you cant q up pc after the fireball that gives you HU since the fireball might not crit and then you need to cast an extra fb into pc, which might push your second db or bw too far out, effectively losing out on dps. Always remember: if something can go wrong, then something will go wrong.

Now with the 100% crit you cast fb after HS, q up pc and start burst. Without 100% you cast fb after HS and q up another fb which you interrupt, if the first fb crit. One gcd wasted.

Remember it is 1.6% crit we are talking about.

All that is fine and well but you didn't say why you don't drop the 2nd fb on pc. Do you want it for a bit more later after the combustion? In any case it might be nice if it's backed by sims because I see a lot of guessing when it gets to this spec.

[Zayele]

On another note, how good would the 720 (upgraded to 730) version of Bonemaw's Big Toe be compared to Sandman's or GSR?

imo bad

Bonemaw(upgraded to 730) 2 min cd on use. 2687 crit
Sandman(stage 6) 115 sec cd 15% chance to trigger 3080 crit AND 385 Int

Not saying that the on use trinket is better than sandman's, but to say it is bad, is an understatement in my opinion.

Thanks for the responses! As a small follow-up, suppose you are playing Fire on Gorefiend, but can't kill it during the first Feast. Would you rather use the on-use, Goren Soul Repository, or Sandman's? (I don't think Sandman's would be desirable here).

[Glitzerbling]

Sandmans is good for gorefiend. The first feast is like ~130 sec into fight, so if you delay your opener by a few sec you should have a fresh sandmans on beginning of feast. Might need a few pulls to adjust it perfectly.
And to get the third proc into second feast... die instantly after first feast and stop dps when sandmans is about to get rdy. Sounds selfish, but since your add dmg is already really low it doesnt really influence the fight. Unless theres like 5 ppl stoping dps to save procs for second feast.

[Seatoo]

Does anyone have a wa tracking the icd of the pouch or a timer?

[andy]

Does anyone have a wa tracking the icd of the pouch or a timer?

Buff duration:

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dCdVcaGlvQ2gentksZvjvZwOpPKKVPe7KkSxYUP0(vj6NqvgMQACQsdLIyWQKA4IQdQk8BvCmPCojzHQKSuiulgcwUipujLNI8yQ0ZvQjQKWuLyYanDuxuLWvHqEgK66u1gPIUnu2mGTdjFwq)vsnnk8DLeDnr5YkgTQOXdv1jHk3sLYPbDEkQxRKuhwQwMaRMkIWebkcufr4JhaWEy54F)))Tx0TFMbY3LmrMXdaypSCASGoiOcz1sqWh5)1qa3mmebCSSZypClcpevmfNJleHqpT2jEsQihOLZSk0gTmJ3p6waAJLxbCldPyrXthufrGqaaORpYMvreMpYqvelwu6ehveH5JmufXIfL6UJkIW8rgQIyXI4ECSSkIW8rgQIyXIa6Um8yvreMpYqvelwSO0ecp2I58ru3N6i0tIGwix7EWYJdpGYrtep4Z(0i6r0JbTqpMiq4op2nJZ9yfHZYtcO7oRJZ9y3RdTOQXGB36Cu51CcAx9WI4emmCsQiAF8j3XBHSO8y38KeTZNyehOOgYGQwLOThHb1yzYdaaXxu9deH4h1pmXetXDXkeb6tDgESIc(IguJLfT2bdHoF51MEcfXMZhrdQXYI87PENpXioqDLi)EQ3hFYD8wiRRe5TdQXYIyi2akwuheeYWJThR5emmCsBvelY6Xkjyy4K2Yrteeue1TGyD7Q2xETjhV7trRecYpLZLpAKVlTwfYmJFLrta3mYe9CGHpz5mRQ1()FW7FjyjlRsa3mEflAlk4E7()EBrek5Oze0elb

Cooldown:

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dCtAcaGlvv2McntQOMRG0SPQBsfX3Kk7KkSx0UjA)ck)uszyQOFdYTvPbljmCQ0bPe(Su6ycDoPQfkj1sLeTyc0Yv0dLK8uOhtPEUsnrbvtvIjdQPt6IQQ6QcINrjDDk2OuyRuISzvz7QWLf9AQinnb(oLOUMQY4iGrtqgpb1jju3ss1PbopHSmPOdRK)QGzKfIxIWeHzHOW1EVDQSr9oR9DFXVXGZ(rRNDr(QhyLOOAV3ov24lOlghhhTkWNaD9NN8vpiG4dsQn8R2nXAHuCwSJ)e9qlywicdEpGTXRIyH414valuPsCc5twiEnEfWcvQeNl7KfIxJxbSqLkrD5tPYcXRXRawOsL4BzRaijleVgVcyHkvQeNzlaswe5MexM5sW1Kiqc0bBORRp1eMoIe1uy1mtIw4nxGeyUeHbBx)sKyBijrXsnNVLDgQyBi5ouG8y4c22dUhUd6eiDAQe1jOTnNSqCdzM2PrcuIU(LOCsC7MEVyyIXXM9XEIBJG5rkv08EaHjoyrivAXqL)Dsnl9pCIWM5sbqsI9FeZJuQeRc6k4sdRcNHAjQICtI5rkvIMDoSDtVxmmRMOzNdBiZ0onsGYQjAK5rkvIk4MWujkn3Ye02MZnDejcGjIlj8DjdRIQcNOLbWQqSr3P1rb6IX(XVGZ(GiF1d(ikucAfsPJMrQe3eB(l(78xSJ4bDedAgPsc

I'm not exactly a pro at making WeakAuras, so it's in two auras. First one's a progress bar for the buff when the trinket procs. The second one is the remaining CD after the buff expires.

[Xyren]

Sandmans is good for gorefiend. The first feast is like ~130 sec into fight, so if you delay your opener by a few sec you should have a fresh sandmans on beginning of feast. Might need a few pulls to adjust it perfectly.

What u do is : Usual opener (instant) but stop dps for a few seconds when sandman icd is rdy to have it proc on feast phase.

[Seatoo]

For the BiS list...why not use the killrogg chest and our tier helm? Strictly ilvl?

[skiz]

Still not sure about the Opener / Combustion sequence.

Opener: A lot of guys using Pyroblast (precast) into scorch spam + IB to get HU + Pyro!. With a "On-Use"-Crit trinket, this becomes as easy as : Pyroblast (precast) -> Trinket -> Scorch + IB -> PC (If critcapped). Which seems to be totally awesome with early ring usages + PC. Timing PC "correctly" into the ring to avoid bugs is still an issue.

Combust sequence:

If you have TW/BL

After putting down the Crystal

Fireball -> Pyroblast -> Fireball -> Pyroblast -> Pyroblast -> Pyroblast -> Combustion -> Inferno Blast -> Dragon's Breath w/ Cold Snap -> Dragon's Breath [option A]

If you don't have TW/BL

Fireball -> Pyroblast -> Pyroblast -> Pyroblast -> Combustion -> Inferno Blast -> Dragon's Breath w/ Cold Snap -> Dragon's Breath -> Blastwave -> Blastwave [option B]

This is the thingie I'm worried about. So above I do see A) and B). Pretty sure that simcraft is using the following variation of option B regardless of TW/BL:

option C)

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Fireball -> Pyroblast -> Pyroblast -> Pyroblast -> IB if X -> Pyroblast if Y -> Combustion -> Inferno Blast -> Dragon's Breath w/ Cold Snap -> Dragon's Breath -> Blastwave -> Blastwave

X = current ignite may be increased by this spell. IB is used quite often after it.
Y = current ignite may be increased by this spell. This is odd. Happens sometimes. On rare conditions he switches the target for it, which is just a sum of weird bugs in that case.

Now the silly part with option C is that you'll probably just get 1 Dragon's Breath on the PC and mostly option B is enough to get a decent combustion. However, for some reasons I sometimes run into the problem that my Ignite grows from roughly ~33k to 40k from that last IB + Pyroblast. Option C seems to be the safe version of a high ignite if you skip that "Pyroblast if Y". If you go for that "Pyroblast if Y" option A would be better and produces the safest ignite. But without BL you'll have not enough time for Dragonsbreath and BW. Furthermore your combustion looses some ticks on the PC itself.
So well I'm definitly interested if someone of you looked more deeply into that issue and why you do choose
1.) Option A/B
2.) Option C.
3.) Maybe depending on bosses where you need to keep DB / BW a different way?

[Alzer]

I've simmed most openers you could think of, and the F->P->F->P->P->P->IB yields the highest dps.
Don't think of the IB as an ignite increase/decrease, think of it like spreading extra ingite to the boss. Lets say your ignite is ticking for 90k, spread that to the boss and your IB just dealt 0.5M damage.

This applies to non-opener combustions aswell (F->P->P->P->IB), just changing the

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actions.combust_sequence+=/inferno_blast,if=dot.ignite.tick_dmg*(6-dot.ignite.ticks_remain)<crit_damage*mastery_value

to

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actions.combust_sequence+=/inferno_blast

is dps neutral, however, removing the line all-together is a big dps loss. Since in practice knowing when your IB is gonna increase ignite is pretty much impossible, you can pretty much incorporate this into your combustion rotation.

I'm not sure about the extra pyroblast (F->P->P->P->IB->P). I haven't really looked into this but simply using this rotation all the time vs (F->P->P->P->IB) appears to be dps neutral in SimC.

[skiz]

Assuming with opener-combustions (F->P->F->P->P->P->IB) you're talking about BL/TW with it.

How about non BL combustions?
Worth to play Option A) on them?

[Alzer]

Assuming with opener-combustions (F->P->F->P->P->P->IB) you're talking about BL/TW with it.

Yes, I forgot to specify this.

How about non BL combustions?
Worth to play Option A) on them?

No, that is a huge dps loss.
Unless you have berserking in which case option A) is about 0.5% stronger (for my character).

[skiz]

Your IB change works with BL and combustion (F->P->F->P->P->P->IB). Without BL and combustion (F->P->P->P->IB) it acts weird. The more targets you add the more likely it is an increase, while singeltarget it is a very, very slight loss.

Since in practice knowing when your IB is gonna increase ignite is pretty much impossible, you can pretty much incorporate this into your combustion rotation.

This. Would use IB regardless of it.


Non Bl-combustions:
Option B: F->P->P->P->IB->P
After your IB change the default APL sometimes uses a Pyroblast after IB. I don't get a increase with casting Pyroblast always after IB. Haven't looked that long into it.

Option A: F->P->F->P->P->P->IB (also for non-Bl-combustions)
Seems to get decent after 3 Targets, and mostly equal on 3 targets.

APL Changes. Using timestamps for BL/TW. 8 = during Bloodlust. 7 = without bloodlust. Added all of them under the first fireball line.

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actions.combust_sequence+=/fireball,if=!dot.ignite.ticking&!in_flight actions.combust_sequence+=/fireball,if=prev_gcd.pyroblast&pet.prismatic_crystal.remains>8 actions.combust_sequence+=/fireball,if=prev_gcd.pyroblast&pet.prismatic_crystal.remains>7&active_enemies>3

Edit: tits or it didn't happen:


Edit2:
Worth to mention that the last IB in (F->P->F->P->P->P->IB) probably lowers your ignite this may be bad in some raid situations. (i.e. ~10% lower ignite for combustion. Think of something like xhul horac, where lots of low life adds spawn. Should be nice to get a high combustion up asap and then spread it instantly on imps as soon as they appear into dragonbreath damage sniping. Don't want to argue here if that is a decent way to play, but it looks good in skada.)

[DyLemma]

Lately I've been messing around with bleeding hollow and warsong, there is some people out there with bleeding hollow enchant doing FB - Pyro - FB - Pyro - FB - Pyro - Pyro - Pyro. Which is mind blowing because you're actually losing so much crystal damage and I've tried it and it's a big dps loss. If you're using bleeding hollow should for sure stick with 2 fireballs into pyro chain. However, if you are someone like me that has only 1 edict and I use warsong for arcane I have found doing the 3 fireball chain makes up for not having bleeding hollow and makes it almost equal to bleeding hollow and you don't lose much crystal damage because you have so much haste on pull you can still get your double dragon's breath in and 1 blast wave with 1k haste + berserking and lust. So anyone like me using warsong I'd say go for 3 fireballs and it seems to be equal dps to bleeding hollow. So that makes me wonder if warsong could actually be better. I don't even have that great of fire gear (still have gorefiend neck) and I'm enchanted haste on some pieces for arcane and I'm getting 75k combustions with warsong 3 fireballs. If I had xhul neck and mastery enchants I think I'd probably get up to 85k combustions or more. Also warsong is extremely nice on non lust pulls for trolls with 1k haste as you can do 2 fireballs into pyro chain and only lose 1 blast wave and get a really good combustion. This is just my input from in-game playing a lot, maybe some of you can try it sim it or whatever, I'm not sure how to change sims to do 3 fireballs into pyro chain. Also the 1k haste is not like a marker to be aiming for or something I was just stating how much I have.

[Alzer]

I played around with it abit in SimC, but there's just no way to make F->P->F->P->F->P->P->P a better choice than F->P->F->P->P->P->IB, this is probably explained by the fact that the extra F->P seems to increase your combustion damage by about 1% in SimC, which means you are delaying combustion (and thus decreasing your ring damage) for a 1% increase in combustion damage. At about 9ish targets the F->P->F->P->F->P->P->P catches up.

And this is with berserking, without berksering it's a huge dps loss no matter how many targets there are.

This is the 3-target result for reference:

[DyLemma]

Did you test with warsong and around 1k haste, though? That's why I'm saying with bleeding hollow it's bad I don't know why some of the top parses (take into consideration they are only top because of the time they took to kill the boss not because actual skill/luck) are doing it.

[Alzer]

It's done with 1200 haste and bleeding hollow for both. Warsong was a dps loss over bleeding hollow even with the extra F->P (this is not very suprising seeing how extremely weak haste is during BL).