Fire Mages are alive again (Updated for 6.2.3)

[DyLemma]

The combustion will be weaker yes, I'm saying as a whole. If doing 3 fireballs with warsong is on par with 2 fireballs with bleeding hollow or not.

[Alzer]

Doing 3 fireballs is pretty much always behind with bleeding hollow, with warsong it's even further behind. Warsong is just awful during BL as none of your pyros benefit from the extra haste.

[yungg]

pretty interesting, the #1 fire mage on council used mythic dungeon tank trinket for mastery on-use. Seems like it'd be pretty weak if you only used 685, but potentially useful for the 715-725 versions. I can't imagine it being that great on ST, but on 2 target+, might be worth considering? He got like a 105k combustion which is pretty impressive.

[Alzer]

pretty interesting, the #1 fire mage on council used mythic dungeon tank trinket for mastery on-use. Seems like it'd be pretty weak if you only used 685, but potentially useful for the 715-725 versions. I can't imagine it being that great on ST, but on 2 target+, might be worth considering? He got like a 105k combustion which is pretty impressive.

Yes, I've been trying my luck for this trinket for a long time now. The 725 version is very good.

[Seatoo]

Which trinket is this?

[Rinoa]

Bonemaw's Big Toe, drops from (surprise!) Bonemaw in Shadowmoon Burial Grounds. Do note that it's very bad if it's not of at least regular 685 mythic quality, and that you cannot get this item as a mage when using personal loot. You'll want to aim for one with close to 725 base itemlevel.

http://www.wowhead.com/item=110012/bone ... us=642:760" target="_blank

[Alzer]

Bonemaw's Big Toe, drops from (surprise!) Bonemaw in Shadowmoon Burial Grounds. Do note that it's very bad if it's not of at least regular 685 mythic quality, and that you cannot get this item as a mage when using personal loot. You'll want to aim for one with close to 725 base itemlevel.

http://www.wowhead.com/item=110012/bone ... us=642:760" target="_blank

He is referring to the on-use mastery trinkets, http://www.wowhead.com/item=109997/kihr ... us=642:760, http://www.wowhead.com/item=110018/kyra ... us=642:760 and http://www.wowhead.com/item=110008/thar ... us=642:760. These are much stronger than the on-use crit trinkets, and you can't use both of them so.

[Rinoa]

Right you are. That should teach me not to read posts when I'm about to fall asleep.

[Seatoo]

Bonemaw's Big Toe, drops from (surprise!) Bonemaw in Shadowmoon Burial Grounds. Do note that it's very bad if it's not of at least regular 685 mythic quality, and that you cannot get this item as a mage when using personal loot. You'll want to aim for one with close to 725 base itemlevel.

http://www.wowhead.com/item=110012/bone ... us=642:760" target="_blank

He is referring to the on-use mastery trinkets, http://www.wowhead.com/item=109997/kihr ... us=642:760, http://www.wowhead.com/item=110018/kyra ... us=642:760 and http://www.wowhead.com/item=110008/thar ... us=642:760. These are much stronger than the on-use crit trinkets, and you can't use both of them so.

Would you use that with the pouch or DSI? I assume DSI but assuming is often "ungood"

Edit: WCL shows he uses SMP

[Alzer]

Yes, you definitely use it with pouch. 3000 crit every 2 min is just way too good to give up.

[Allanon]

Whats the best way to get my hands on such a trinket. Like could I go with 4 ppl that change lootspec to tank and have a higher chance of getting it somehow? I am just always using lootmaster, but I am wondering if theres a better chance?

[Eva]

I'm a lover of the fire spec, and it's the reason I rolled this class in the 1st place, so you can imagine my happiness when I found out about this thread, and I wanna thank every1 that has posted here. You Sirs revitalized my interest in the game.
Now, after the pleasantries, I have a couple of questions. Forgive me if they have been answered previously on this post, as I must admit I skimmed through it. Last night I got mythic wf Iron Reaver Piston on our farm run. Is it a good-enough option for when we don't use ring on CD? I'm unlucky so far with any of the on-use crit trinkets from SBG, haven't seen one drop yet.
Secondly, I'm on a high ilvl at the moment, sitting at 736 equipped, and 2,921 crit rating buffed (crit buff and 125 food). I've seen posts here suggesting to start going for mastery enchants after 2,4k, if im not mistaken. I just run a sim tho, and the scaling suggests that I still go for crit. http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/n ... %A3/simple Armory link and http://imgur.com/8q4NAtM a pic of the scaling on a sim I just ran. As you can see on the armory link, I'm still all crit on enchants and gens, even my weapon enchant. Is there a reason behind this? Like a bad sim sequence, or an outdated version of my simcraft?

[Unclechicken]

It looks like that Chinese mage with the rank #1 on council only has a base i700 mastery on use trinket. Would love to see some combusts with a maxed out one...

http://www.battlenet.com.cn/wow/zh/char ... %A8/simple" target="_blank

[Zelus]

I'm a lover of the fire spec, and it's the reason I rolled this class in the 1st place, so you can imagine my happiness when I found out about this thread, and I wanna thank every1 that has posted here. You Sirs revitalized my interest in the game.
Now, after the pleasantries, I have a couple of questions. Forgive me if they have been answered previously on this post, as I must admit I skimmed through it. Last night I got mythic wf Iron Reaver Piston on our farm run. Is it a good-enough option for when we don't use ring on CD? I'm unlucky so far with any of the on-use crit trinkets from SBG, haven't seen one drop yet.
Secondly, I'm on a high ilvl at the moment, sitting at 736 equipped, and 2,921 crit rating buffed (crit buff and 125 food). I've seen posts here suggesting to start going for mastery enchants after 2,4k, if im not mistaken. I just run a sim tho, and the scaling suggests that I still go for crit. http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/n ... %A3/simple Armory link and http://imgur.com/8q4NAtM a pic of the scaling on a sim I just ran. As you can see on the armory link, I'm still all crit on enchants and gens, even my weapon enchant. Is there a reason behind this? Like a bad sim sequence, or an outdated version of my simcraft?

Basically the way fire is played now, you wait for the trinket and rng gods to gift you with a decently timed sandman proc. Then unleash hells fury on the boss and do ass tons of damage all at once. Mastery helps with this and makes your combust huge. Then you continue doing like 50k dps just spamming whatever pyros you get. You only really need to get like 46-47% crit buffed. So whatever gems and enchants you have that are putting you over that should get switched to mastery to have bigger burst phases. You should also use the weapon enchant bleeding hollow. What's kind of nice too is your warforged gemslot weapon is actually bis for fire over edict. So you are solid. Just go full mastery and you can burn shit hardcore.

[Eva]

Basically the way fire is played now, you wait for the trinket and rng gods to gift you with a decently timed sandman proc. Then unleash hells fury on the boss and do ass tons of damage all at once. Mastery helps with this and makes your combust huge. Then you continue doing like 50k dps just spamming whatever pyros you get. You only really need to get like 46-47% crit buffed. So whatever gems and enchants you have that are putting you over that should get switched to mastery to have bigger burst phases. You should also use the weapon enchant bleeding hollow. What's kind of nice too is your warforged gemslot weapon is actually bis for fire over edict. So you are solid. Just go full mastery and you can burn shit hardcore.

Well all you're saying, I've read it all up before. Thing is my sims still indicate crit as the main scaling factor. Why?

[skiz]

Now, after the pleasantries, I have a couple of questions. Forgive me if they have been answered previously on this post, as I must admit I skimmed through it. Last night I got mythic wf Iron Reaver Piston on our farm run. Is it a good-enough option for when we don't use ring on CD? I'm unlucky so far with any of the on-use crit trinkets from SBG, haven't seen one drop yet.

Honestly? No idea. I've got a crit on use trinket and I've not looked into that issue afterwards.

However, I do know that frosted usually generates trinketcharts. Those charts are usually generated by having 0 trinkets equipped and just using 1 for comparison - as far as I remember it. And on those charts from frosted here:
https://altered-time.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=750" target="_blank
or charts from icyveins do show off that your trinket is pretty decent:
http://www.icy-veins.com/wow/fire-mage- ... st-in-slot" target="_blank
(Pretty sure that those icy veins charts are generated with a different gear setup - much higher itemlevel. But I still think that they do run a profile with just 1 trinket equiped each.)

The interesting thing is that both trinket rankings show that you want a trinket that provides you a high crit rating for your bursty combustion if you do not delay your ring. The basic idea behind current fire is to be crit capped for building up ignite before your combustion. On the other hand your trinket does not seem to be that bad for fire. So for delayed rings I would guess that your trinket is decent. As mentioned, just a guess.

Secondly, I'm on a high ilvl at the moment, sitting at 736 equipped, and 2,921 crit rating buffed (crit buff and 125 food). I've seen posts here suggesting to start going for mastery enchants after 2,4k, if im not mistaken. I just run a sim tho, and the scaling suggests that I still go for crit. http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/n ... %A3/simple Armory link and http://imgur.com/8q4NAtM a pic of the scaling on a sim I just ran. As you can see on the armory link, I'm still all crit on enchants and gens, even my weapon enchant. Is there a reason behind this? Like a bad sim sequence, or an outdated version of my simcraft?

Can't tell you how you've simmed yourself. If you've simmed yourself with sandmans or your current gear should alter the results slightly. But get simcraft out of your mind for a brief moment.

Lets stick with on-use-crit trinket for now. What does crit offer to you? You're using that trinket with every burst where you got ring up. During that on use trinket you want as much crit until you're capped against your Prismatic crystal (or boss if you don't run PC). Any crit rating above that is useless for your burst. High itemlevel burstphase is rouhgly around 500k dps, while afterwards you're doing 60k dps between those bursts. Between bursts you definitly profit from more crit - but even that is slightly diminished because you do have infernoblast. But this should be enough to understand the idea of more crit beeing useless during your burn. And even here I'm not sure if it is worth to critcap yourself against the boss if you run PC.

Without any kind of high crit procc / on use trinket you'll never be critcapped against your PC. Every amount of critrating is decent during your burn. To answer your question: simcraft is probably right. You do want more crit if you simmed yourself without sandmans / on use crit trinket.

If you do get the same results with sandman's / on-use-crit trinket things are gonna get complicated. But as someone else wrote it already in this thread. With crit trinkets you want to get capped against PC or Boss - and no more crit beyond that.

P.S. you need to run master loot during SMBG

P.P.S. May be interesting to sim yourself against multiple targets. Mastery sometimes gets awesome there.

[Eva]

Between bursts you definitly profit from more crit - but even that is slightly diminished because you do have infernoblast. But this should be enough to understand the idea of more crit beeing useless during your burn

Yeah I figured as much today, and I felt stupid for asking that in the 1st place. Im running SBG on ML, don't worry So this means that I go bleeding hollow and mastery enchants till I drop to 79,6% crit chance on sandman's proc?

[skiz]

Between bursts you definitly profit from more crit - but even that is slightly diminished because you do have infernoblast. But this should be enough to understand the idea of more crit beeing useless during your burn

Yeah I figured as much today, and I felt stupid for asking that in the 1st place. Im running SBG on ML, don't worry So this means that I go bleeding hollow and mastery enchants till I drop to 79,6% crit chance on sandman's proc?

Well, those are two questions. Generally weapon enchants do differ from stat ratings. The correct answer is: Get into the gear you want to wear and sim yourself. I'm 99% sure it is bleeding hollow with an high crit procc / on use from trinkets.

How much crit?
Same here. Go sim yourself with the correct gear and use REFORGE PLOT. Sadly, there is a little problem with sims for fire at this very moment. Just showing you the irc dump from komma and myself here:

<Komma> silly wand and other people guessing at crit values for fire
<Komma> just run a reforge plot!
<wand> Just tried to answer why simcraft says crit > mastery
<wand> and it is silly to run a reforge plot
<wand> without a decent apl
<wand> (alias I need to run developer build)
<Komma> dev build!
<Komma> well, you wouldn't be able to get meaningful results without a dev build
<wand> often yes
<wand> current build which I do have on windows atm still uses non synced combustion to ring

(Issues: Combustion code and APL - which are fixed on dev build)

So you either should build simcraft yourself and run it - way to much work.
Or you do wait until a correct simcraft version is out for public and until then you just follow the general advice of getting enough gear up to the critcap for your specific purpose.

Critcaps can be found here:
https://altered-time.com/forum/viewtopi ... 274#p20435" target="_blank

Personally, I do run 2700 crit to achieve this one: bloodelf (with bonemaw) = 2472 + 220 rating for critcap against bosses. (I prefer to have a stable rotation instead of random delays with fucking ring.)

P.S. no need to burn komma's house down - simcraft builds are on the way.

[Seatoo]

Personally, I do run 2700 crit to achieve this one: bloodelf (with bonemaw) = 2472 + 220 rating for critcap against bosses. (I prefer to have a stable rotation instead of random delays with fucking ring.)

Please elaborate on this because I'm in the same boat in terms of dumb random ring decisions. Do you mean you just use bonemaw's to control when you have the extra crit for PC?

[skiz]

Personally, I do run 2700 crit to achieve this one: bloodelf (with bonemaw) = 2472 + 220 rating for critcap against bosses. (I prefer to have a stable rotation instead of random delays with fucking ring.)

Please elaborate on this because I'm in the same boat in terms of dumb random ring decisions. Do you mean you just use bonemaw's to control when you have the extra crit for PC?

Think of archimonde. Ring gets used 2 seconds into the fight. Roughly enough time for precast + scorch + IB.
I've got 3 Casts to prepare proccs, otherwise I need to delay PC or use a weird opener on the PC. Literally the worst-case is having to delay PC because you've got your proccs late (because you did not crit) but Ring is already running and putting PC down at this situation would bug out your legendary ring on the Crystall. In that case it is possible to drop down your PC and build up that last heating up on PC, which is also a horrible Opener.

At this very moment I'm even considering using scorch as precast on that particular fight, just to be able to use the trinket precast - and not wasting 2 seconds of that trinket (Using trinket with pyro precast). Those 2 seconds may be worth more later on: After setting up combustion I'm able to play another "burn" pyro-phase until Tankadd is up and my next infernoblast can be used again.

Shortly, I do like to control my crit to use it slightly before the ring. But even for that, I do need to know when that ring is aproximatively cast.