Fire Mages are alive again (Updated for 6.2.3)

[Eva]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-_OHYw1aC8
Made a little vid with the two openers in case some1 doesn't want to stick to the theory and wants to check it out b4 practising!

[Petfood101]

Do you go for any kind of haste at all? Or just crit/mastery all the way? Like is there a minimum amount to try and reach?

And secondly, non-bl pulls, i just fb+pyro, fb+pyro+pyro+pyro into combust, cuz it nets me a 60k or so ignite. Should i just skip the second fireball+pyro in favour of double db?

[Tyler]

Finding my haste to be a little under what i'de like it to be, my GCD's seem so long between Pyros and it always feels like im losing 10-20k of my ignite off the moment it registers on my weakaura and the moment i apply combustion, not sure where to get the extra haste from though, using Kilrogg chest offpiece & Gorefiend weapon, have edict but couldn't see myself losing all of that crit and mastery.. any ideas?

Currently at 2600 crit rating with mage buff
461 haste
3436 mastery
533 multistrike

would appreciate any ideas.

[Tyguy]

Few things; if I have more than 47% crit, it's better to go with a mastery buff on weapon..and stack mastery more.. or keep stacking crit? So basically is there a cap on crit when you want to stack mastery? I thought crit was still the end all be all stat for fire.

I know you use BW on nearly every fight, but when and if using LB, do you refresh it when it has 5 or less seconds, or wait for the explosion before refreshing?

Also, I know it might have already been posted, but can someone either post again the exact talents which are best used on each boss in M HFC or link the page of the post please. Sorry for asking that. I'm an old school fire mage relearning fire.

[Glitzerbling]

47% is where it's at. You stop stacking crit there and go all out mastery/haste after that. If you cannot get to the 47% mark you might aswell not play fire. The crit wep enchant isn't all that good for fire. It's balanced around it's extra mechanic - critical strikes during the proc have a chance to prolong the proc - seeing as fire has very little amount of casts, you have a quite low uptime of the proc, compared to frost f.e.. Now since the crit proc is also 100% useles during your burst and seeing as burst is everything since leg ring... Mastery is where it's at.

You refresh LB with <3 sec left, not <5.

BW+PC on every fight bar Xhul. even on xhul it is still very viable though. The Tips and Tricks Thread was made long before we started playing around the ring so heavily, so things have changed a lot from what was then perceived as the best talents to do a certain encounter.

[Tyguy]

47% is where it's at. You stop stacking crit there and go all out mastery/haste after that. If you cannot get to the 47% mark you might aswell not play fire. The crit wep enchant isn't all that good for fire. It's balanced around it's extra mechanic - critical strikes during the proc have a chance to prolong the proc - seeing as fire has very little amount of casts, you have a quite low uptime of the proc, compared to frost f.e.. Now since the crit proc is also 100% useles during your burst and seeing as burst is everything since leg ring... Mastery is where it's at.

Thanks for the clarification, I should have noted that I still do not have DSI, I'm Using Sandman's Pouch with M Gaze, so is the threshold on 47% reliant with having DSI? I'm sitting around 52% crit now with self buffs, so I'll scale it down 5% or so.

[Wilderness]

Thanks for the clarification, I should have noted that I still do not have DSI, I'm Using Sandman's Pouch with M Gaze, so is the threshold on 47% reliant with having DSI? I'm sitting around 52% crit now with self buffs, so I'll scale it down 5% or so.

DSI doesn't have crit on it, so it would not included in any crit calculations.

[Tyguy]

Every time I ran SimC with my current fire gear, crit came out on top considerably higher, even over Int. I ran Simulations for all fighting styles and used LB on Hectic Add Cleave and Crit was still on top. I have about 52.55% crit self buffed, so I'm somewhat confused how mastery is better around 47%. This is my char.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/s ... rst/simple" target="_blank

[Glitzerbling]

Trust us. Just go mastery after 47%. there was a reason why SimC says Crit, but I forgot it. Something wasnt quite optimized for the 2min style.

I was allout crit before I looked into syncing everything up with ring. Just syncing up increased my dps just a bit less than 10k. Switching around gear to net me more mastery and less crit further boosted my dps by 20k. Not once did SimC tell me to go mastery.

[Frosted]

Trust us. Just go mastery after 47%. there was a reason why SimC says Crit, but I forgot it. Something wasnt quite optimized for the 2min style.

I was allout crit before I looked into syncing everything up with ring. Just syncing up increased my dps just a bit less than 10k. Switching around gear to net me more mastery and less crit further boosted my dps by 20k. Not once did SimC tell me to go mastery.

SimC was updated last night. Run it again, it should give you reasonable results in regards to crit/mastery now.

20k DPS sounds like nonsense though.

[Seatoo]

If the fights are longer than 2 minutes then crit is almost always better

[Glitzerbling]

Trust us. Just go mastery after 47%. there was a reason why SimC says Crit, but I forgot it. Something wasnt quite optimized for the 2min style.

I was allout crit before I looked into syncing everything up with ring. Just syncing up increased my dps just a bit less than 10k. Switching around gear to net me more mastery and less crit further boosted my dps by 20k. Not once did SimC tell me to go mastery.

SimC was updated last night. Run it again, it should give you reasonable results in regards to crit/mastery now.

20k DPS sounds like nonsense though.

Nah I had a lot of crit and near to no Mastery. second highest stat was Multistrike. I swapped around most of my equipment and gained like 10 ilvls ontop of that.

[skiz]

Trust us. Just go mastery after 47%. there was a reason why SimC says Crit, but I forgot it. Something wasnt quite optimized for the 2min style.

I was allout crit before I looked into syncing everything up with ring. Just syncing up increased my dps just a bit less than 10k. Switching around gear to net me more mastery and less crit further boosted my dps by 20k. Not once did SimC tell me to go mastery.

SimC was updated last night. Run it again, it should give you reasonable results in regards to crit/mastery now.

Pretty much this. But I've realized that simcraft results may be a little bit complicated to understand.

Critcap? Yes / no / maybe?
If I do assume that mastery is my 2nd best stat, I do get the following results with a profile that runs 103% crit on Fireball and those spells.


Apparently, I should get less crit. I've got roughly 2% crit to much. Critcap against PC is at 101%.

What do I do after "enough crit"?
The following thing happens if I do run two comparing profiles where both of them has sandmans. I assume that I do not control the ring and in my raid that ring is going to be popped 2 seconds into the fight. Those two profiles start their burstphase either with that ring or with the trinket procc.


I do get roughly the same results if I do just bonemaw profiles. Apparently 103%% crit makes the rotation for nonsandmans trinkets way more stable. With sandmans you're screwed anyway. But if you do run into that problem, more crit wins. However, you're probably able to force a trinket procc with Felmouth frenzy which should be your choice. (Edit: felmouth frenzy does not procc that trinket.)

What do I do after "enough crit for a stable rotation" ? (Well, it is the same if you do not care for a stable rotation)
Now this gets complicated. There are roughly 2 possible ignite builders for combustion.
A)
(Fireball -> Pyroblast) -> Pyroblast -> Pyroblast -> Infernoblast-> Combustion -> Infernoblast

B)
(Fireball -> Pyroblast) -> Pyroblast -> Pyroblast -> wait if you're to far away -> Combustion -> Infernoblast

Both variations use another (Fireball -> Pyroblast) early on if Bloodlust is running. Simcraft always uses Combustion at the same time of its next gcd, but before the spell that triggers it. So there is a little problem with it.

For both profiles there is a kind of race between building up ignite and ticks of ignite. Preferable you want to have your spell hits before ignite ticks. For both variations you need to start your first (Fireball -> Pyroblast) spells from 18 yards away. They need to get out of your hands from atleast 18 yards away. This is because of travel time beeing capped at 0.75 seconds and it is 24 yards / second. 24 * 3/4... you got it.

A) (Fireball -> Pyroblast) -> Pyroblast -> Pyroblast -> Infernoblast-> Combustion -> Infernoblast
Infernoblast has no traveltime, so it does not matter if you move yourself towards the boss.

I can sim that, if I do change the profiles slightly to always cast IB after building up ignite. I do assume that either haste or mastery is my 2nd best stat. Multistrike should scale worse than mastery and versatile is shit anyway.

This profile runs with 1194 haste. This was singel target.


Apparently: haste to cap > mastery on singeltarget. If I do sim 2 or 3 targets mastery gets a little bit better. If I do sim a short fight mastery gets a lot better. However, if I do sim that guy again with different haste values and a very high mastery value I do get the following picture: (Short fight)


Amount of targets and fightlength should not matter. Haste to cap > mastery is the to go version. From some more sims: simcraft is pretty sure that that cap is at 810. Ingame you'll see your first infernoblast hitting before the next ignite tick.

B) (Fireball -> Pyroblast) -> Pyroblast -> Pyroblast -> wait if you're to far away -> Combustion -> Infernoblast
In this case you should move towards the boss, this will ensure that your last pyroblast has roughly 0 traveltime to probably hit the boss before ignite ticks. Any multistrike from that pyroblast will definitly tick after your ignite hits and will screw your combustion. So you're running towards the boss spamming pyros and pressing combustion after it. You got roughly a 0.333 ms timeframe to hit that combustion after your last pyro.

Ingame:

With BL:


At this very moment it is probably impossibel to sim that:
- robomage does not want to run towards the boss on pyro spam
- robomage does not want to press combustion immediatly.

However, from what I do see ingame:
- Haste cap matters for that one. It could be less than 810. I honestly don't know where that one is.
- I highly doubt it will be above 15% haste, because of Bloodlust and gcd cap during it.
- If you're unable to run towards the boss, this version just sucks. Resort back to A)

Which variation is better? Well, it depends on how high your ignite is compared to what it is after spreading.
Did a lot of napkin math and the short version is that I'm unable to give you a working formular. If you're able to get an ignite for combustion that is close to ~6% better it should be a gain. But from what I do see ingame and in logs it mostly never happens. You can probably just play the cookie cutter version A). If you see huge ignite jumps during that then change your rotation on the next pulls.

TL;DR
Crit on use trinket:
Crit to 101% > Crit to 103% > 810 hasterating > mastery > multistrike

Sandmanns:
Crit to 101% > maybe Crit to 103% if you lack proccs > 810 hasterating > mastery > multistrike

- felmouth frenzy sucks with sandmanns. Unable to procc it.
- Trolls do not like haste as much as everyone else does. But they probably like it as much as they do like mastery.
- You really want to go for Option B if it is working with your haste value. Some Bosses don't like mages cuddling up with their prismatic crystal in melee range.

For gearing purposes you can simply assume: Crit > haste before cap = mastery >= multistrike >> versatile.
If you're sure you'll get critcaps anyway: Crit = haste before cap = mastery >= multistrike >> versatile.

and additional notes:
- hastecaps depend on latency, since you're just spamming instants. You may need some more haste than 810. It is possible to test that, but you do need a 5% haste buff and it is hard to analyze 4 piece procc which gives another 6%
- Keep in mind: Simcraft isn't able to hit Combustion in the correct timeframe for double IB, yet it still favors haste.
- Logs highly suggest to stick to version A). (Double IB)
- 47% is the most misleading thing I've read about fire. I'm looking at logs where people do stack mastery but don't crit on PC.

[Alzer]

However, you're probably able to force a trinket procc with Felmouth frenzy which should be your choice.

Felmouth unfortunately doesn't proc Sandmans.

[Wilderness]

Thank you skiz, its always interesting and informative to read your analysis.

You mentioned 2+ targets briefly in haste/mastery 2nd best stat comparisons, but is most of this analysis directed towards single-target?

Do you know what the dps loss (I'm assuming its a loss) is to use scorch once Sandman's is off CD to get more casts in prior to ring being used for the 2nd or later ring/combustion if ring is being used on CD?

[skiz]

@Wilderness:

I started with crit / mastery on singeltarget. That reforge plot doesn't look different on 2 target fights. On short fights there may be an issue with mastery and haste overtaking crit. Would not recommend that.

Haste vs mastery is a thing that favors haste more on singeltarget. The difference between both shrinks on multiple targets and shrinks even more for a short fight. However, that 810 haste thing seems to be independant of those factors.

On a 2 target fight with a long duration 810 haste is roughly 3k dps ahead, difference grows on 3 targets.
The potential worst case of a short fight with 2 targets looks like that:


Regarding scorch: I haven't looked into it. Logs highly support using scorch to get proccs before the ring. Worth to look into logs. I don't see many fireballs.

[Frosted]

However, you're probably able to force a trinket procc with Felmouth frenzy which should be your choice.

Felmouth unfortunately doesn't proc Sandmans.

Proof? it procs RPPM trinkets.

[Wilderness]

The reason I ask is dropping crit in favor of mastery comes out better on 2 targets when I sim myself. I don't usually look at reforge plots, I just sim profiles with different stats. When I sim myself with a couple different profiles with as much crit as I can get, or swapping in mastery for crit on 2 target fights ranging from 2.5-5 mins, the one that always comes out ahead drops crit in favor of mastery. They get closer on longer fights and mastery is further ahead on shorter fights.

[satii]

I have 194 haste and getting ib before 5th ignite tick is no problem. 810 cap with my (troll) profile might be because robomage doesn't combustion correctly and the extra ~600 haste helps with ib multistriking.

[Alzer]

Proof? it procs RPPM trinkets.

Breathing pretty much proccs RPPM trinkets.

Sat on a dummy for a long time. Didn't proc from fel lash a single time (afked when sandman was on CD).

Proof: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/dbYtv3GjMhP2JFTw/
80+ hits. Odds =0.0002%, obviously for some of those hits sandman had procced already but you get the point. Did the same thing half a year ago.

I have 194 haste and getting ib before 5th ignite tick is no problem. 810 cap with my (troll) profile might be because robomage doesn't combustion correctly and the extra ~600 haste helps with ib multistriking.

Yes, if you are a troll you will be GCD capped no matter what and haste will have a very low impact on ignite timing.