Fire Mages are alive again (Updated for 6.2.3)

[Chesco]

When you have 47% crit (including 5% crit buff), with the 715 Sandman's Pouch + 125 crit food it gives you 1.15(2804+125)/110 =30.62% of crit. 1.3(30.62+47)=100.91% of crit towards the Prismatic Crystal.

Could someone clarify me what this means?

I'm not sure about it cause I quite recently started playing as Mage, but why is the 1.3x multiplier being applied to crit when in fact it affects the damage taken by PC?

I mean, ok, 47% is a good value, you get a good crit while still being able to pay some attention to mastery, but for me this quote doesn't seem to be a reliable reason/explanation for you to aim for 47% crit.

[Komma]

1.3x multiplier is referring to Critical Mass, a Fire Mage passive. It's trying to calculate the exact amount of crit you need before all of your spells are guaranteed to crit (ie. 100% after crit depression mechanics) on Prismatic Crystal.

[Chesco]

1.3x multiplier is referring to Critical Mass, a Fire Mage passive. It's trying to calculate the exact amount of crit you need before all of your spells are guaranteed to crit (ie. 100% after crit depression mechanics) on Prismatic Crystal.

Oh, thanks for your comment. I didn't remember about Critical Mass and got confused because of what I read about PC before, and misunderstood that.

So it does make sense to have 47% crit, but specifically in this scenario only. It's important to remember that with 2/2 upgrades the crit cap went down by a bit. As now Sandman gives 3080 crit, based on the above scenario (using 125 crit food) you have 1.15*(3080+125)/110 = 33.50%, and to achieve 100% crit with its proc you would need 1.3*(33.50+43.43)=100,009% crit. So, if my calculations are right the cap with 6/6 stage, 2/2 upgrade Sandman's Pouch is 43.43% self-buffed (crit buff) and without food.

Still, thanks for the help!

[Komma]

No problem.

It does look like he forgot about 2/2 upgrades. That said, your numbers are still off by a bit, because you haven't accounted for crit depression yet.

[Searix]

Wrote about it earlier: http://www.altered-time.com/forum/viewt ... 160#p21413" target="_blank

2285 should be crit cap

[Glitzerbling]

28 points below critcap, following your maths. Made me go full enrage in ts the other day, when first pyro on Crystal didnt crit.

[Searix]

This is why I wanted someone to double check :p

Btw isn't fleshrender hook (2600 haste on use first socks boss trinket) BiS other trinket? It lets you do superchinese every time and snapshots onto combustion like mastery does

It also lets you get your fire stacks up faster

[Glitzerbling]

RIP well thought answer to a deleted post -.-

and 20 min later, the question is back.

[Liveet]

After reading through the last few pages and stumbling upon this "Superchinese" rotation I started trying it out ingame and got to thinking about what effects it has on ring damage and so on.

Just to start out so that we are on the same page and to establish that I have actually understood this "Superchinese" rotation, this is what I have gotten. "Superchinese" = Fireball->Pyroblast->"Chinese".
With "Chinese" being = >Fireball->Pyro->Pyro->Infernoblast->Pyro->Pyro->Combustion->Ib while running in.

What I gather from here is that under a haste buff such as BL/TW Inferno Blast doesn't come of CD intime for the "Chinese" rotation to be better then "Superchinese". Is this assumption correct? What I mean is that due to the usage of Inferno Blast at the start to force HU+Pyroblast, Inferno Blast is simply not up for the Pyro->Infornoblast->Pyro sequence in "Chinese".

My thinking/solution here would then be to just skip the first Inferno blast that you do on pull. Sandmans should have procced at the pull or close to it, meaning that Scorch will be at a crit chance of 100 % and also with the same cast time as the GCD of Inferno Blast. Inferno Blast thus not actually providing anything.

So what would this give us then, one might ask. Well, by switching to "Chinese" instead of "Superchinese" we would not be spending precious ring and PC time on pushing in another Fireball+Pyroblast. We would instead shift the PC and Ring damage from Fireball+Pyroblast to Combustion uptime+2xDB or 2xBW depending on your Haste levels and so on.

This should make even more sense considering the fact that most guilds dont wait 5 or so seconds for the Fire mages to build up their burst, they rather use it on pull or 1-2 seconds in.

How does this sound to you guys? Comments would be greatly appreciated.

[Searix]

I thought the extra fireball+pyro at the start of superchinese was to add to the combustion ignite, is it really just buying time for inferno blast to be back up?

[Liveet]

I thought the extra fireball+pyro at the start of superchinese was to add to the combustion ignite, is it really just buying time for inferno blast to be back up?

Yea that could surely be the case. I do still wonder however if that little extra combustion damage would make up for the lost 2xDB into ring damage?

[Liveet]

I thought the extra fireball+pyro at the start of superchinese was to add to the combustion ignite, is it really just buying time for inferno blast to be back up?

Yea that could surely be the case. I do still wonder however if that little extra combustion damage would make up for the lost 2xDB into ring damage?

I guess that it really comes down to shifting damage from the ring to combustion. As in if you do Superchinese you get a higher combust but then also a lower ring. So depending on targets and how many you can spread Combust too, that should also be taken into consideration.

[dopamine]

I thought the extra fireball+pyro at the start of superchinese was to add to the combustion ignite, is it really just buying time for inferno blast to be back up?

Yea that could surely be the case. I do still wonder however if that little extra combustion damage would make up for the lost 2xDB into ring damage?

I guess that it really comes down to shifting damage from the ring to combustion. As in if you do Superchinese you get a higher combust but then also a lower ring. So depending on targets and how many you can spread Combust too, that should also be taken into consideration.

Is my math right here? Assuming the best case of 1 sec GCD during lust/berserking:

Fireball/Pyro - lands at 0 sec. Timer starts here.
Fireball/Pyro - ~2 sec (1 sec GCD from last pyro + the cast time of fireball, which is actually slightly >1 sec, even with lust. also, travel time)
Pyro - 3 sec
IB - 4 sec
Pyro - 5 sec
Pyro - 6 sec
Combust @ 6 sec (maybe slightly earlier than 6 sec due to running in)

In this case, it seems like adding an extra Fireball/Pyro at the beginning doesn't contribute to the combustion, right?

[Searix]

Is my math right here? Assuming the best case of 1 sec GCD during lust/berserking:

Fireball/Pyro - lands at 0 sec. Timer starts here.
Fireball/Pyro - ~2 sec (1 sec GCD from last pyro + the cast time of fireball, which is actually slightly >1 sec, even with lust. also, travel time)
Pyro - 3 sec
IB - 4 sec
Pyro - 5 sec
Pyro - 6 sec
Combust @ 6 sec (maybe slightly earlier than 6 sec due to running in)

In this case, it seems like adding an extra Fireball/Pyro at the beginning doesn't contribute to the combustion, right?

You're forgetting about the running in part of this. I'd been wanting to see how running affects the combo so I thought it would be healthy to look at logs to see how travel-time affects ignite

Here's a recent log from Tyrant where i start the fight 25ish yards out and run in for last pyroblast hit




First pyroblast at 25 yard range takes 1.073-.323=0.75 seconds to travel

Fireball+pyro on crystal at 25 yard range takes 6.733-6.006=0.72 seconds to travel, 6.748-6.006=0.742 seconds to travel

Now i start running in, last pyroblast before combustion hits at 10.335-10.067=0.268 seconds to travel

Note:
-I'm not sure if 40 yards would be better than 25 yards, but someone earlier in the thread said travel time is consistent from 20-40 yards so I just cast from 25 yards out.

Conclusion: Most we can save is ~.5 seconds, so yes again it seems we can't fit in the full superchinese rotation

[dopamine]

If I'm looking at it right, your first hit on crystal lands at 6.733 sec, and Combustion is at 10.55, so ~3.82 second difference. You seem to be GCD capped, so it's not gonna get any faster. Hypothetically, if you had superchinesed, the time to send another Fireball/Pyro is over 2 seconds, which would have put the overall time over 5 seconds. So why superchinese at all? Wouldn't the ignite from the first Fireball/Pyro in superchinese always fall off?

The way I see it, with superchinese, you get an extra Fireball/Pyro, and their ignites, included in the ring explosion, but with reg. chinese, you can get an extra DB as well as one or two ticks of combustion added to the ring explosion instead. The latter sounds like a better deal to me.

Also, with lust/berserking, scorch is <1 sec cast, so there's really no reason to inferno blast to build procs... so IB will always be up and ready to go for the chinese sequence.

So why use superchinese...ever? Or am I missing something?

[Searix]

Seems like we need an extra spell with Chinese though

[Glitzerbling]

just because a spell lands 6 sec before the combustion doesnt mean it doesnt contribute to the ignite. Superchinese is higher ignite than chinese under any circumstance (unless proccs would run out for last pyro but then its maths). just doesnt fit in Crystal w/o Lust.

Just from the openers I did I feel using superchinese on opener with lust vs nonsuper chinese is a bit less than 5k combustion on average. But that would need to be simed to get a real idea.

With ~12% haste + lust you should still be able to fit 2xDB into PC after supechinese, so the only thing you lose is the 2x BW on crystal.

Been doing a lot of these openers the last few weeks w/o CS and it was always Superchinese -> DB ->BW ->Crystal runs out.

[Komma]

Hypothetically, if you had superchinesed, the time to send another Fireball/Pyro is over 2 seconds, which would have put the overall time over 5 seconds. So why superchinese at all? Wouldn't the ignite from the first Fireball/Pyro in superchinese always fall off?

I feel like I repeat this a lot, but....

THAT IS NOT HOW IGNITE WORKS AT ALL!

Spells that land more than 5 seconds earlier still contribute to the Ignite at the time of the Combustion. Ignite ticks are recalculated and redistributed every time a spell lands that adds to the Ignite bank. While the first Fireball and Pyroblast does contribute less because of the 2 second gap, that does not mean it contributes nothing.

[Searix]

Hypothetically, if you had superchinesed, the time to send another Fireball/Pyro is over 2 seconds, which would have put the overall time over 5 seconds. So why superchinese at all? Wouldn't the ignite from the first Fireball/Pyro in superchinese always fall off?

I feel like I repeat this a lot, but....

THAT IS NOT HOW IGNITE WORKS AT ALL!

Spells that land more than 5 seconds earlier still contribute to the Ignite at the time of the Combustion. Ignite ticks are recalculated and redistributed every time a spell lands that adds to the Ignite bank. While the first Fireball and Pyroblast does contribute less because of the 2 second gap, that does not mean it contributes nothing.

Haven't seen this posted before, how does this work?

[Komma]

Haven't seen this posted before, how does this work?

[TC] What is Ignite?