[Meta] Lack of curated class info

[Azuren]

Mod edit: Split the following posts from http://www.altered-time.com/forum/viewt ... =27&t=2530" target="_blank , because it is unrelated to the thread, but a topic worthy of discussion.

I actually just registered to make a statement on that Komma.

Honestly said, what good is having knowledge if not to share it. Make no mistake, there should be some effort put in to figure out what works, but I'll be perfectly honest... As a non-theorycrafter, reading some of the forums looks like Chinese to me. I am sure there are many others who are looking at these 20-30 page dissertations and literally having their brains explode.

I certainly appreciate much of the effort many of the awesome theorycrafters put into figuring out these classes and how to best utilize them, but take a look at it from various others perspectives. Some people are suffering in available time to research the classes but at the same time looking to improve their playstyle (let's be honest here... the greater majority of WoW players do not even use the internet to look up anything on their class, at least these people are making something of an attempt, at least they came to the right place), others are in a different situation (such as myself), where I am responsible for the management and well being of an entire raid group of diverse classes and DPS players. Managing the players themselves is tough enough, considering it is like herding cats, but the other half of it is, in order to help push for a successful bout of raiding, I need to be able to understand at least on a fundamental level of what these classes entail and what statistics should focus towards what talents and specs. Could you imagine trying to balance a theorycrafter level focus of 28 seperate DPS specs?

I do think one thing that Altered Time sorely lacks is a primary thread [where the first post is continuously updated] (with a discussion attachment to it) about each spec and how best to utilize them. The reward, that theorycrafters should take by this, is pride. Pride in that they are creating a new generation of better players and we don't see people who wipe on LFR trying to jump up to Heroic/Mythic level without first actually getting on our level.

I'd love to dig through all the thread posts to try and decipher what works and what doesn't work, but the threads in general suffer from a lack of KISS (a psuedonym for keeping it stupid simple). I strongly encourage that you help push for more encouragement of communication and EASE of sharing information. In the long run, you'll have more mages willing to communicate and expand upon the mage class and its mechanics... right now, it feels like a distinct separation between the Calculus professors and us lowly algebra peasants. It does neither side any justice in the long run.

[Zyrachiel]

Azuren, what you're asking for is coming. There will be guides and comprehensive posts for everyone as we get closer to launch, just like in every other expansion. The problem is that people are asking for definitive answers now. This is infuriating to the initiated, because they all know those answers don't exist yet, because of tuning. Therefore, it is infuriating when someone rolls up and asks to have answers to everything laid out for them on a silver platter. If they gave it a simple thought or maybe at least read any of the discussion threads they'd rapidly realize it's pointless to ask for things like stat priority right now. But no, people come, ask, get told to wait and do some work on their own, and they get pissy about it. This is shameful and unacceptable in my mind.

You mention the lack of a primary updated thread for each spec. Have you even seen the forum while you were registering?
Just opening the "Fire" subforum - up to date stat weights, talent and trinket coparrisons, up to date fire mage guide by Dutchmagoz.
Arcane forum? Same. Frost? Not one, but two up to date comprehensive class guides.

I'm sure both these posts will be deleted because they are pointless, but I hope you read this before you go and get annoyed at more dedicated people for not spoonfeeding the general public before the stew is done, again.

Edit: I also find your suggestion to make this forum easier to read for the sake of people not versed in theorycrafting insulting. This forum, or at least parts of it, is a platform for theorycrafters to congregate, research, compare results and publish them. If a thread is beyond your understanding then it probably doesn't concern you. What you're asking for is the equivalent of walking up to a table of chemistry professors and asking them to talk amongst themselves so someone who doesn't know anything about chemistry can understand them. Ridiculous.

[Azuren]

I get what you are saying, to that same end, theres a lot of people building up stuff as well. Hell, I am trying to culminate and reference stuff for all 28 DPS specs myself as we speak. I think it is less about someone wanting a definitive answer vs someone looking for a ball-park idea. I consider things like this to fall under two levels of theorycrafting: Theorycrafting and Overcrafting. Theorycrafting is a mixture of intuition and research, done in a way that it is an accurate guesstimation. An example of this would be something along the lines of seeing that Crit is very valuable and some gear switching has proven that Crit is more meaningful than, lets say, haste. Overcrafting is more of an exact precision where Simcraft cranks out tens of thousands of attempts with every possible variable. What is more accurate, Overcrafting for certain, what is more practical for gearing towards in the meantime, I'd lean more towards the Theorycrafting there.

Here is another thought to that, we are on the cusp of the new expansion patch, to which Multistrike is removed and many stats change. Some people and guilds still raid or are still trying to pull things off (or making Legion an easier progression for them), 100% optimization will not be of help to them, but 85-90% could be.

To that end, people are looking for ballparks so that they can begin turning the boat in the right direction. I am fully building up stuff on my side with the knowledge that stats can and will change, that said, the foundation will not change so drastically. Tuning is just that, no more major swings of changes, and more precision for balance. To me, it is a margin of practicality vs literal. I deal with statistics every day as part of my job, but I fully know that if I cannot provide them in a timely manner (if even they aren't 100% exact) the opportunity to act upon them will have passed and become lost. You consider it shameful and unacceptable, I see it as a necessary evil.

As for the forum threads and such, yes, I have read them and I visit Altered Time probably several times a week to look up and learn more stuff. I do find some of the threads to be a bit out of date or not factoring in what I'll then find seven threads discussing and balancing in. Such as some of the ignite mechanics or the impact of changing statistics as a result of the valor point upgrades and heirloom trinkets.

Lastly though, I am not annoyed at more dedicated people, I applaud and thank the people who have the time to implement stuff like this. I am simply saying that some information should be shared even if it came with a descriptor stating it is all subject to change but this is a "gut feeling" on the statistics we've developed so far.

As a mage myself, many aren't looking for what is the best talent under what circumstances and what stats are needed for it to be optimal, most are simply just trying to figure out. Well, if our mechanics have changed a decent bit (and combustion and the removal of the crystal/OP Ring is a major change mechanically), what would make sense to focus towards: Crit business as usual, or should we start considering haste, or mastery, or versatility. Etc...

I think you are overthinking the question

[Azuren]

Edit: I also find your suggestion to make this forum easier to read for the sake of people not versed in theorycrafting insulting. This forum, or at least parts of it, is a platform for theorycrafters to congregate, research, compare results and publish them. If a thread is beyond your understanding then it probably doesn't concern you. What you're asking for is the equivalent of walking up to a table of chemistry professors and asking them to talk amongst themselves so someone who doesn't know anything about chemistry can understand them. Ridiculous.

Now THAT I find insulting. I live in a world that is immersed in the latest technologies of IT and Data Management, my department, however, is placed within that of Marketing. I have to talk both sides at all points in time, because communication is necessary.

What I am asking is not telling chemistry professors to stop talking to one another like chemistry professors, you are right, that is insulting, but that is not what I am asking. I am asking for a means for us, data scientists to be able to talk to chemistry professors and understand one another. You have to realize that your own statements make you come off more elitist than supportive of discussion. I legitimately want to understand what is being done with theorycrafting and who knows, maybe eventually I can be a willing contributor towards it. Why are you so against talking to people who cannot always understand everything you do?

[Grumpdogg]

If you are a non-theorycrafter, are too busy to take a cursory look at the available guides and can't understand the current discussions - you probably aren't qualified to create a 28-spec master guide. We should be glad that this forum exists and is open to all!

[skiz]

-regarding legion:
1. Tuning does not seem to be done. I've seen multiple spell changes during the last weeks. Ranging from slightly 10% buffs to 90% buffs - or a slight cooldown increase on Phoenixflames from ~15 seconds to ~45 seconds.
2. Simulators are still updated, some spreadsheets are not complete yet.
3. Talents are slightly more complex than WoD, simply because there are no Rows that mostly work the same way. And once tuning is done, talents potential are more about synergy between each other. They also change the rotation a lot so that finding a rotation becomes harder. Most simulators really need a decent rotation to work. Talents do not seem to be balanced right now.

So just wait and see what happens or maybe even contribute. But it seems save to assume that fire's best stat will be int or spellpower - which is tied to the itemlevel. Then maybe crit, everything afterwards will probably change.
Rough idea from here: https://www.altered-time.com/forum/view ... =80#p22950" target="_blank

[ardomur]

I just wanted to say to the "quick stat weights":
the problem with those is, that some people take them as a given.
One Mage said in a Arcane Mage Guide that 2.200 Haste would be a good ball park and sudenly you get weekly questions asking, if it is okay to go below these 2.200 Haste. This so called Breakpoint was never a thing, but some people read the number and took it as such.
If Komma or someone else right now says: "Go Crit over everything, its the Best" and tomorrow Blizz buffs ignite and something else, this could all go to the crapper and as a result Komma and co. would have to spend hours everyday trying to clear things up
so if you aren't playing on the PTR to test things (where you test, so you don't really need given stat weights, just test the talents, optimizing would be a waste of time) you don't need those asked stat weighs, because they are irrelevant right now.
I'm sure when Pre-Patch hits its gonna take about a day to get a guide in every Forum with the correct Stat Weights and Talents and stuff, because Frosted, Komma and co. optimized Theorycrafting with their spare time (thanks btw. for doing this stuff for free^^) and waited for the final numbers
and finally: "I am fully building up stuff on my side with the knowledge that stats can and will change, that said, the foundation will not change so drastically." I think its pretty safe to assume that int is pretty important, after that you need crit because thats the whole point of fire, and right now mastery looks pretty good, but a simple nerf like taking away a charge of fireblast (?) could screw with this and make crit the very best, or they buff ignite and mastery gets better... aside from that i don't think vers is ever gonna be better for fire than crit and because of the instant pyro thing haste isn't that great aside for fireballs

[Komma]

Woah, a lot happened while I was on a trip!

I split the posts that were discussing the need for curated info, because it is a topic deserving of its own thread, even if it is off-topic from the original thread asking for Fire stat weights.

After reading your post, I think the main thing you wanted to say is "there isn't enough curated information for the public". You want to see a main thread where it says which Mage specs are in good shape or bad shape, along with a brief details. Something along the lines of "State of the Specs". This is entirely understandable, and I agree with you that we don't have enough of that kind of content. While I can't magically conjure that up for you, I can give you several reasons for why we don't have it.

The first reason, as many others have stated, is that things are currently very much in flux. As the past 3 tiers have shown, last minute changes, often applied as hotfixes after a patch has gone live, throw things upside-down. If you look at our WoD beta forums, you'll notice this is exactly what happened. Frost was on a roller coaster, going from strongest numerically to weakest, and then hotfixed back to strongest after prepatch release, and nerfed back to weakest once Mythic Highmaul was in full force. Many of us will still have PTSD from this hotfix announcement on Oct 17th, 2014:


So yeah, it's a bit too early to make any "State of the Specs" thread.

A second reason is that Altered Time, first and foremost, is a community site - a forum. We are not a news site the likes of MMO-Champion, nor a guide site like Icy Veins or the late Summon Stone. As staff, our priority is to maintain Altered Time as a community suitable for Mage players to share their information. We want to create a platform for content creators such as guidewriters, theorycrafters, video creators, or just Mage players in general to share their ideas and content, instead of just generating content ourselves. As some of you might have noticed, I don't write any guides at all!

Our motto is "For Mages, by Mages" instead of "For Mages, by AT". As members of our forum, this is where all of you come in: YOU need to be the one to create curated threads and guides, so that everyone can have an easier time digesting all the information!



A third, lesser known reason is our culture. In some other forums, video channels, streams and social media, you'll often see certain experienced players creating early "what to do for upcoming patch" guides. Those don't appear much on AT. That's because AT was founded during the last tier of Mists of Pandaria, at a time when theorycrafting was just a few famous Mage players in top guilds, telling everyone what to do. The problem with this, is that a lot of this advice was ridden with misinformation, yet nobody could challenge the authority of these top players. One of the major motivating factors for founding AT was so that there would be a platform where ideas would be judged only by their own merit, and that players could challenge and replace misinformation, even if it came from someone well known and the player is a nobody. Nobody can get away with just telling people what they "think" is good, without a lot of players challenging that person for details, evidence and analysis.

Such a culture also comes at a cost. When you don't have someone labelled as a "prophet", it means there isn't a "prophet's word" to follow. There isn't a single person everyone can listen to and count on to always be correct. All you have is a chaotic mess of forum members debating ideas, trying to find the best one. A very difficult forum to traverse, especially as a new member. Yet this is a cost that we are willing to pay.

Take a quick look at all the different threads and ideas that have spawned from different players in each forum. Just when everyone thought the Fire Mage was dead for good, a thread was created by a player who had zero posting history, leading to the domination of Fire Mages as one of the most powerful classes in Hellfire Citadel. I'd even say that the Mage community has the strongest understanding of their class right now, compared to all the other classes in World of Warcraft. If you don't believe me, just look at what Celestalon had to say about our clever use of game mechanics:



Altered Time may seem chaotic, hard to understand and even intimidating to newcomers, but it is only so we can give you the best information a class community can offer. Go ask the Warlocks if you don't trust me.

P.S. Welcome aboard.

[Komma]

Additional shameless plug: We're always looking for guidewriters! You don't need to ask for permission of any sort. If you feel like you know a spec well enough to share knowledge on it, feel free to just write it up and post it in a thread! Well written guides will be made into sticky threads.

[Curnivore]

A third, lesser known reason is our culture. In some other forums, video channels, streams and social media, you'll often see certain experienced players creating early "what to do for upcoming patch" guides. Those don't appear much on AT. That's because AT was founded during the last tier of Mists of Pandaria, at a time when theorycrafting was just a few famous Mage players in top guilds, telling everyone what to do. The problem with this, is that a lot of this advice was ridden with misinformation, yet nobody could challenge the authority of these top players.

I have to disagree with this. Before that, during Cataclysm, a lot of players concluded on the theorycrafting of the game by consulting Simcraft results. The people that followed guides/other players/mantras blindly existed but they weren't the only ones, and besides, don't we have still plenty of people today that lust for the magic mantras (think of the 2100 haste misconception, fire mage secondaries being treated very simplistically, etc.)? There was a mage at the time, I don't know if he's still around, that was developing a very elaborate version of Rawr but I believe that never reached its intented potential because formulation is tough. Attempts to formulate the game in general still go on - including when trying to formulate a specific boss encounter - but at the end of the day a basic but complete Patchwerk-based Simcraft appears to be the best realistic chance for someone to conclude on a major decision about their spec in this game (Patchwerk can build up to multiple Patchwerks or some slightly more complex versions but not much more than that realistically).

To put it simply the best contribution I have seen Komma, Frosted and others here offer is to help on Simcraft. Because when you give people a platform to test their character setup and boss setup, they can help themselves and perhaps avoid having a major need on guides about it, with the possible exception of a good listing and description of the mechanics available because stat weights, rotations (the scripts can be read), and talent choices can be derived from the results. Perhaps using Patchwerk or multiple-Patchwerks (what we usually have available) simulations isn't a panacea and we often do mistakes on how we interpret them or using the tools but it's the best chance we get for good information.

At the same time the people that will lust for the mantras and the magic bullets will always exist.

[Rabona]

I would also add that from my experience it won't take long at all for someone to write new findings up in a very understandable manner once something is sort of agreed on.

Also, given the volatile nature of the specs right now and considering that APLs aren't fully done yet (I assume?) I find it understandable that our TCs don't dedicate their time towards writing up stuff that at this point still has a very realistic chance of not applying to the release version.

[Voltairus]

Just to offer another point of view on the topic in general, I would agree somewhat with the OP's point of there not really being any consolidated information for the average Joe to at least get first impressions from in preparation for the pre-patch and the expansion's start itself. Now, I -only- say this because I am comparing it to the similar time frames for WoD's release where it felt like there was a ton of information out there on people's perspective on how the state of each spec and why they felt that way.

I more than understand the stance of this is a forum where we all dictate what information is out there, not necessarily those running the asylum per say. With the pre-patch alone dropping in just a few days I personally would have thought there would be some level of information out there where there was at least a general consensus on how those of us still actively raiding should approach things for this last month and a half but there really isn't. A handful of posts where there are conflicting ideas and a couple Recount screenshots.

Don't get me wrong, I don't expect Frosted and the like to have simcraft backed stat weights and rotation suggestions for each spec combination. It just kinda feels like there's a void where no meaningful discussion is taking place amongst the guys most of us plebs look up to for guidance. ;p

Regardless, though, I want to express my deepest gratitude to everyone who's contributed to these forums over the last couple years because it has been a wealth of knowledge I have grown spoiled with. I respect the dedication it takes to do the work you have done and for not being paid for it. I can attest to the fact that despite Komma and other's not intending Altered-time to be the voice for Mage's everywhere, it has a reputation for being the one place people can sift through te bullshit to find some glimmer of truth. For me, specifically Komma and Frosted have helped me become a better Mage and I thank you.

[Kver]

Part of the way we've always functioned is that if at any point somebody such as you raises these concerns we invite them to create this information themselves and share it with everybody else. I think there is a distinct difference between "there are no good comprehensive guides yet", which has been explained above, and "the theorycrafting is like Chinese", which may actually have something to do with how things are being shared and written.

I don't think it's a discussion at all that some of the theorycrafting things are beyond a lot of us, be it due to the fact that it takes a lot of time to understand or because we simply don't care because abysmal 0.05% dps benefits. We're always trying to look into better ways of processing information and making it available in the clearest manner that's easiest to find, and we have a few ideas of our own that are being worked on. However, if you think we're missing the mark there and can succinctly suggest what to do that'd be of much use.

Sadly things like "It's too hard" or "it's too hard to find/search" or more a symptom than a cause, and we can't magically change this.

[ztranger]

I can volunteer to write a basic guide (kind of how to play wow but from a mage perspective) :

Content:
Keybinding
UI
How important is it to follow the rotation?
- testing
- training
- troubleshooting
How important is gear?
How important is flask/food/rune/intellect pots/enchants/gems?

+any other basic subject I can think of

[Myrxx]

As someone who is newer to the Mage class, I love reading all of the guides that you guys make. They do a great job of helping with raid bosses, and setting up for raids. In Legion however, we get a new PvE challenge in Mythic+ dungeons. I'd love to see some Mythic+ guides, or just sections of standard guides that covers specializing for difficult 5 man content, approach to pulls, best rotations for dispatching small groups of 3-5 mobs, etc. As it stands, I have a pretty good idea of how to fight and specialize for a raid boss, but I'm not sure on what the best way to fight and specialize for a Mythic+ might be.