Optimal frost opener?

[Dyasis]

What would be the ideal opener?

I normally do the following
evoc
Mirror Images
Pre-pot
Frost Bolt (pull should happen around here)
Bomb
Frozen Orb
Wait for procs and then pop macro:
/use 10
/use Icy Veins
/use Berserking
/cast Alter Time
/cast Ice Lance

Anything I should change?

Now, my next question is the timing of AT with procs, is it an absolute must to wait for FFB and 2 IL?
I would assume when PBoI pops and hopefully Jade Spirit to use AT even without procs?

Thanks, sorry for the newb questions lol

[Charmander!]

It's never been a must to wait for BF / 2x FoF. AT is mainly used to extend trinket procs. Also going into AT with 4-5 icicles if possible is nice to do so it's best to wait for PBoI to proc before doing so.

Arguably you won't even be casting FoF-IL during AT if you have enough mastery and meta/trinkets are up except to dump excess icicles before AT ends, as hardcasting frostbolt is likely more DPET than FoF IL at that point, but I haven't done the math on that.

[Dyasis]

Well I did misspeak when I said should I wait for FFB +IL procs because I mainly played arcane and always waited for 2 AM procs lol

But you did clear it up for me for using AT. Thanks!

[durrtygoodz]

Arguably you won't even be casting FoF-IL during AT if you have enough mastery and meta/trinkets are up except to dump excess icicles before AT ends, as hardcasting frostbolt is likely more DPET than FoF IL at that point, but I haven't done the math on that.

If Ice Lance doesn't cleave you need 110% mastery during times of 1.0 second frostbolts in order for a frostbolt+icicle to be more damage than an ice lance, and they're within ~2k damage of each other at that stage anyway and there's not many people that boast that much mastery right now.

Either way though, you won't be able to use the icicles before AT ends if you're just using FFB/FB so no, IL should never be ignored.

@OP: You should use your orb before bomb so that you have procs for that first bomb. You should also use IV right after that bomb because the glyph makes each cast a triple chance at proccing PBoI.

I just went troll like last week so still playing around with this but I feel it's better to delay Berzerking until after lust and use it with a KTT proc since using it during the opener, you're already far below 1 sec frostbolts anyway, seems pointless.

I posted my opener in a thread earlier but I'll post it here as well. This is for a Malk/IJ fight where it's straight single target without anything fancy.

-4.5: Evo
-2.5: Mirror Image
-1.5: Pre pot frostbolt
-0: Frozen Orb
1: Living Bomb
2: Icy Veins and frostbolt

At this point 3 things can happen and what you do next depends on the outcome:

1. PBoI procced right away, press AT and nuuuuuke
2. PBoI didn't proc, cast frostbolt to 5 icicles then if PBoI procced use AT
3. PBoI doesn't proc, just give up and walk away from the computer

[Windofwinter]

I hate it when it doesn't proc. It's like finding out you won the lottery but then that the ticket was a gag. it's like that feeling. World ending

[Hadise]

Arguably you won't even be casting FoF-IL during AT if you have enough mastery and meta/trinkets are up except to dump excess icicles before AT ends, as hardcasting frostbolt is likely more DPET than FoF IL at that point, but I haven't done the math on that.

If Ice Lance doesn't cleave you need 110% mastery during times of 1.0 second frostbolts in order for a frostbolt+icicle to be more damage than an ice lance, and they're within ~2k damage of each other at that stage anyway and there's not many people that boast that much mastery right now.

Either way though, you won't be able to use the icicles before AT ends if you're just using FFB/FB so no, IL should never be ignored.

@OP: You should use your orb before bomb so that you have procs for that first bomb. You should also use IV right after that bomb because the glyph makes each cast a triple chance at proccing PBoI.

I just went troll like last week so still playing around with this but I feel it's better to delay Berzerking until after lust and use it with a KTT proc since using it during the opener, you're already far below 1 sec frostbolts anyway, seems pointless.

I posted my opener in a thread earlier but I'll post it here as well. This is for a Malk/IJ fight where it's straight single target without anything fancy.

-4.5: Evo
-2.5: Mirror Image
-1.5: Pre pot frostbolt
-0: Frozen Orb + counterspell
1: Living Bomb
2: Icy Veins and frostbolt

At this point 3 things can happen and what you do next depends on the outcome:

1. PBoI procced right away, press AT and nuuuuuke
2. PBoI didn't proc, cast frostbolt to 5 icicles then if PBoI procced use AT
3. PBoI doesn't proc, just give up and walk away from the computer

I'm a troll too, using 582 KTT and 561 PBoI. You say to save your Berserking for a KTT proc, but what do you do if that procs with your PBoI on the pull. Won't Alter Time eat the KTT proc if it procs during those 6 seconds?

[durrtygoodz]

What I mean is that I dont use Berserking in my opener at all, atm I'm using it after lust, on the first KTT proc I get after it.

I'm playing around with it a little right now to try and find the best way but with ~3min kills on a lot of fights now it seems right to just delay it. On multi target it's a little different and I'll use it right away to get the big boy dots out, i.e. TFP, Shamans, etc.

[Vellox]

Just a quick question on AT and trinkets on the opener, if I have everything else proc'd, Jade Spirit, Totem, Meta, IV, but PBI is just refusing to do anything, should I AT and risk wasting the PBI Proc or risk letting the others fall off entirely?

I have been doing so since 6 more seconds on all of that seems a lot better, but some confirmation either way would be great.

[Malon]

Yes, but be ready to cancel. By this I don't mean recast it, but actually remove the buff so that it doesn't do anything. Use a '/cancelaura Alter Time' macro, and press it if PBoI procs in those six seconds of AT.

[Vellox]

Ah I did not know that was a thing, that make things so much easier thank you!

[powerxox]

wait a sec.
doesn't AT get you 6 sec. back, then after sometime back to original
i mean if you have 30sec icyveins and you use it right away what is the benefit of it?
also should we use AT for BL ?

[Crabmodem]

wait a sec.
doesn't AT get you 6 sec. back, then after sometime back to original
i mean if you have 30sec icyveins and you use it right away what is the benefit of it?
also should we use AT for BL ?

You get an extra six seconds. Lets say you cast IV. Then your PBoI procs you hit Alter Time. At this point you had 20 seconds left in your IV. At the end of Alter Time you go back six seconds so you still have that same 20 seconds of IV and the PBoI. As for using it on a lust? It's nice when everything lines up but it doesn't always. That is why I like being a troll and having my own personal mini lust.

[Stressball]

wait a sec.
doesn't AT get you 6 sec. back, then after sometime back to original
i mean if you have 30sec icyveins and you use it right away what is the benefit of it?
also should we use AT for BL ?

You get an extra six seconds. Lets say you cast IV. Then your PBoI procs you hit Alter Time. At this point you had 20 seconds left in your IV. At the end of Alter Time you go back six seconds so you still have that same 20 seconds of IV and the PBoI. As for using it on a lust? It's nice when everything lines up but it doesn't always. That is why I like being a troll and having my own personal mini lust.

On the pull you usually don't have much of a window to delay AT during after PBoI procs because KTT/BBoY and the meta tend to proc immediately, and you don't want to lose time on them, but any time you get a quick PBoI proc and nothing is about to go sub 6 seconds it's better to sit on AT a bit (you should have popped IV when PBoI came off ICD) in order to fish for more procs, or at least a couple FoFs and some icicles. For instance, the second AT on a fight that lasts in the ~4:30 region, where you'll usually get the full duration out of your third PBoI.

As for BL, you should have a pretty good idea when this is coming since it's either going to be immediately on pull or at some crucial point in the fight. And if it's on pull just pop it yourself so you don't need to worry about the timing of it.

[Ghostlawbster]

Hi. I was wondering if someone wanted to expand on the " PBoI doesn't proc, just give up and walk away from the computer" option earlier. So, as in most cases for me Meta, Jade Spirit and KTT proc right off the bat.
This is with the usual opener:
-4.5: Evo
-2.5: Mirror Image
-1.5: Pre pot frostbolt
-0: Frozen Orb
1: Living Bomb
2: Icy Veins and frostbolt

Do a few more frostbolts and still no Bindings proc. At which point do you just alter anyways? Would you alter with like 5 icicles, and ~5secs left on KTT and meta? (I realise to cancel the alter time aura if bindings procs during the alter).

[BioBall]

Personally, If bindings don't proc I just leave AT until it does. I've had just waaaaay too many incidents where I use AT and RIGHT after I do Bindings trolls me and procs.
I would rather lose a little on AT but have a full bindings proc.

[donci]

5-invocation
3-mirror
2-order element to attack, prepod
1-cast frostbot
I suggest to not save/cancel alter time if you miss a trinket proc;delaying may make you lose other procs/skull banner/stormlash etc. Cancelling AT makes you lose at least 2 instacasts, and I don't think geting 1 extra proc has more value than losing 6 seconds out of at least 4 procs.
This is just how I see it.

[Berlinia]

DG, how come you don't IV first and then do LB as that increases BF proc chance?

[durrtygoodz]

DG, how come you don't IV first and then do LB as that increases BF proc chance?

How does a spell that adds 20% damage to FB FFB and Ice Lance give LB a higher proc rate for Brain Freeze?

[Berlinia]

-snip-

remembered incorrectly.