Why Phoenix's Flame over Scorch during Combustion?

[Voldemorph]

Moderator note: moved to Q&A.

Basically the question in the title.

The guide on icy veins http://www.icy-veins.com/wow/fire-mage- ... -abilities
tells you that after you've run dry of Fire Blasts during combustion, you should continue to generate further Hot Streak procs by using Phoenix's Flame.

I've run no sims on this and it's possible that I've overlooked something. But wouldn't it be more beneficial to save Phoenix's Flame until after Combustion as it's already a guaranteed critical strike anyway? Scorch has the same cast time as the global cooldown from using Phoenix's Flame. And Scorch has the benefit of hitting the target instantly, possibly granting an extra Hot Streak proc.

[Potaetoe]

Basically the question in the title.

The guide on icy veins http://www.icy-veins.com/wow/fire-mage- ... -abilities
tells you that after you've run dry of Fire Blasts during combustion, you should continue to generate further Hot Streak procs by using Phoenix's Flame.

I've run no sims on this and it's possible that I've overlooked something. But wouldn't it be more beneficial to save Phoenix's Flame until after Combustion as it's already a guaranteed critical strike anyway? Scorch has the same cast time as the global cooldown from using Phoenix's Flame. And Scorch has the benefit of hitting the target instantly, possibly granting an extra Hot Streak proc.

We are using these abilities under RoP, and PF does a ton more damage under RoP than Scorch even when added to ignite. (like twice as much damage)

At least that is my understanding.

[Kanro]

Your goal is to do as much damage as possible during Combustion. Any crit rating that brings you over the 100% cap is transferred into mastery. This is why Rune of Power sims really well, you put all eggs into one basket. Your ignite will ramp up from the damage from Phoenix Flames.

I guess your damage should flatten out more if you keep Phoenix Flames out of combustion. But overall you are gonna miss out on the extra ignite from Phoenix Flames.

[Woke]

Any crit rating that brings you over the 100% cap is transferred into mastery.

To be clear on how combustion actually works, because how you wrote it could be interpreted to be a flat transfer of percent, not actual critical strike rating:

Combustion does not transfer crit rating over the 100% cap into mastery. All combustion is actually doing is converting your critical strike rating number total into mastery. This is simply a nomenclature thing that should be addressed.

For example, if you have 10,000 critical strike rating when you combustion, then you get 10,000 mastery rating. So if you had 5,000 mastery rating, you now would have 15,000 mastery during your combustion.

Just don't want people to misinterpret that caviat.

[Voldemorph]

Your goal is to do as much damage as possible during Combustion. Any crit rating that brings you over the 100% cap is transferred into mastery. This is why Rune of Power sims really well, you put all eggs into one basket. Your ignite will ramp up from the damage from Phoenix Flames.

I guess your damage should flatten out more if you keep Phoenix Flames out of combustion. But overall you are gonna miss out on the extra ignite from Phoenix Flames.

So basically, the ignite gained from the increased mastery coupled with Phoenix's Flames high damage makes it more worthwhile to use even though you're "wasting" the guaranteed crit? Even if I could spend my Phoenix's Flames with a second Rune of Power after combustion has ended?

[Igni]

You also hit much harder with spells during combustion, meaning PF scales better during burst. The goal of min maxing fire mage is to maximize the outcome of your burst, not sacrifice it for flat damage, which will result in lower overall damage. If you cast Scorch over PF you permanently lose a large amount of damage for the duration of the encounter.

[Voldemorph]

Alright, thanks for the answers

[Lammer]

I wanted to ask the same question as the topic starter, but the posts above don't seem to me to answer it

Trinkets have duration longer (15-20 sec) than combustion lasts (10 sec), you almost always put the second RoP after combustion ends, thus you get the same buffs for your PFs, as it would be during the combustion phase. That is why I don't understand why we should fire with a 100% crit spell during combustion. Maybe it would be more efficient to put inside fireballs and pyros depending on haste and Bloodlust presence

Anyway, it would be very useful and helpful if simcrafters ran a 20-25 sec iterations with different sequences in the last phase of combustion (scorch+pyro, PF+pyro and maybe fireball+pyro), as the question seems very important

[Curnivore]

The honest truth is that most of those results are based on simulation. There is napkin math here and there but it's rarely conclusive. About 95% about what you hear nowadays on optimal rotations are the results of trial and error on the script (APL) of simcraft.

[Falq]

I'll try to run simulation when I get home. But to be honest it's exactly as Curnivore said. Simulations are only numbers given my some who code it. If sim gives slight difference, always go with guts or whatever you like more. For example burst/on-use trinkets should get more value than it is shown because you decide when to pop them. When sim get trinket proc he uses full potenatial of it, you may wanna step out of the fire first or do some mechanics first, so your trinket proc may be completely wasted. Going with this mindset, even if it sim similar or combustion better, I'd go with PF during first 10 sec because 10 sec is easier to execute (and safer) rather than 20.

But as stated before I'll post sims later today or tomorrow for sure.

[Igni]

You're not only getting more ignite from it during combustion, but you're at max pyretic incantation stacks as well. So the time between casting ROP and your next cast will benefit ignite the most. For example, if you weave in a scorch during that time, you could lose 15k per tick on ignite. Ignite will also crit 100% of the time during combustion. You mainly lose a big chunk of ignite damage by casting scorch or fireball during this time. Theres also cast time involved. Depending on your haste, you may lose out on a guaranteed pyro crit if your casting isn't fast enough to allow it. On the topic of trinkets, the current bis are mainly rppm trinkets which deal damage so they don't factor into the 15-20 sec duration mentioned. Devilsaur shock baton for example, does benefit off combustion and ROP.