[7.2] Fire Talents, Trinkets, Racials, Stats, Legendary

[driz]

tl;dr; poor performing fire mage, want to know if i simply suck, need better gear/different stats, or different trinkets.

Hello, i have been running sims like crazy to determine which trinkets to use. Running these sims, much like what you show in this thread, i determined that for single target i needed the shock baton and the spiked tongue. I finally got the shock baton and tongue within the last couple days.

ignore the dps showing, it's from this thread, i just labelled my item levels for the trinkets.

I ended up replacing an 860 and 840 with an 830 and an 850, which is perhaps unsurprising since they're listed as bis. However, a confusing part for me is this.



Previously I read that 1800 haste/5200 mastery was a sweet spot of sorts. I also read, on this forum, that 1800 haste was a cap, but my sims are showing that increasing haste in lieu of mastery is a constant gain in DPS. I'm sitting on ~3000 (9.27%) hate, ~400 (1.07%) vers, and ~3600 (13.77%) mastery (on top of 11491 (~57%) crit). Originally, i planned to reallocate some haste into mastery/vers but now i'm showing that I need to move back into getting more haste. Am i misunderstanding this chart, it is telling me that basically, dropping up to 2000 mastery and moving it into haste is a ST increase, correct? Presumably this would have a fairly strong negative impact on trash during mythic+ (i'm simming this now)

if 1800 haste is a cap (soft or hard) shouldn't vers and/or mastery take over. I would assume mastery since ignite comprises so much of my damage to begin with, although a flat damage increase from vers potentially is better (i haven't actually run sims on vers yet..)

My relics were previously an 845 fire cast, 850 pyro and 842 fireball dmg. I replaced the fireball dmg with an 840 pyro.

My question revolves around performance. I run conf/rop/fo/lb/kind in mythic+ and pull 200-300k dps consistently on large trash pulls and bosses. In raid, i'm extremely subpar running pyro/rop/fo/um/kind agaisnt bosses. To the point, where last night on heroic xavius, i asked to be sat for holding us back.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/YvDkFnB32tcK9P4y" target="_blank
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/XThxPCt794jAzV6q" target="_blank
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/FJgLBTtHXKQd238a" target="_blank

I did not have the spiked tongue during these logs, just the 860 horn, i dont know if that much matters. I know i must be bombing my opener because my fellow fire mage bursts to 700-1mil on every boss while i burst to 300k and settle in around 200k fairly consistently.

[broedrost]

This is how I learned to open up as fire: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCwAB9ZRab0" target="_blank

[kamui]

tl;dr; poor performing fire mage, want to know if i simply suck, need better gear/different stats, or different trinkets.

Hello, i have been running sims like crazy to determine which trinkets to use. Running these sims, much like what you show in this thread, i determined that for single target i needed the shock baton and the spiked tongue. I finally got the shock baton and tongue within the last couple days.

ignore the dps showing, it's from this thread, i just labelled my item levels for the trinkets.

I ended up replacing an 860 and 840 with an 830 and an 850, which is perhaps unsurprising since they're listed as bis. However, a confusing part for me is this.


Previously I read that 1800 haste/5200 mastery was a sweet spot of sorts. I also read, on this forum, that 1800 haste was a cap, but my sims are showing that increasing haste in lieu of mastery is a constant gain in DPS. I'm sitting on ~3000 (9.27%) hate, ~400 (1.07%) vers, and ~3600 (13.77%) mastery (on top of 11491 (~57%) crit). Originally, i planned to reallocate some haste into mastery/vers but now i'm showing that I need to move back into getting more haste. Am i misunderstanding this chart, it is telling me that basically, dropping up to 2000 mastery and moving it into haste is a ST increase, correct? Presumably this would have a fairly strong negative impact on trash during mythic+ (i'm simming this now)

if 1800 haste is a cap (soft or hard) shouldn't vers and/or mastery take over. I would assume mastery since ignite comprises so much of my damage to begin with, although a flat damage increase from vers potentially is better (i haven't actually run sims on vers yet..)

My relics were previously an 845 fire cast, 850 pyro and 842 fireball dmg. I replaced the fireball dmg with an 840 pyro.

My question revolves around performance. I run conf/rop/fo/lb/kind in mythic+ and pull 200-300k dps consistently on large trash pulls and bosses. In raid, i'm extremely subpar running pyro/rop/fo/um/kind agaisnt bosses. To the point, where last night on heroic xavius, i asked to be sat for holding us back.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/YvDkFnB32tcK9P4y" target="_blank
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/XThxPCt794jAzV6q" target="_blank
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/FJgLBTtHXKQd238a" target="_blank

I did not have the spiked tongue during these logs, just the 860 horn, i dont know if that much matters. I know i must be bombing my opener because my fellow fire mage bursts to 700-1mil on every boss while i burst to 300k and settle in around 200k fairly consistently.

• The value of Haste increases if the fight is short and if you use Cinderstorm. What fight duration are you simming with?
• Mastery is recommended alongside Crit because its value extremely hard with number of targets. If you sim with 3 targets stacked, you'll see that Mastery is as good as Crit. Mastery is bad only in pure single target fights such as Nythendra and Ursoc. For fight such as Dragons of Nightmare, its value is really high because there are occasionally high HP adds.
• If you were sat, it was because you kept dying or not doing mechanics, not because of your numbers. It's a benefit to have more DPS as long as mechanics are done properly.
• Take Cinderstorm over Kindling for most Mythic+. While Kindling can be good, it's high maintenance to use it optimally in dungeons and Cinderstorm can be consistently strong (provided you don't accidentally Cinderbarrage mobs). Frankly, your damage should be higher than 300k on most trash packs for your gear level.

For those of you who have cleared Heroic multiple times / are progressing Mythic, on which fights would you use Cinderstorm over Kindling and Living Bomb over Unstable Magic?

[trolleritant]

Just got http://www.wowhead.com/item=132406/marq ... e-sun-king" target="_blank the other day and my simmed stat weights for haste went through the roof. Which I suppose makes sense - but I'm already sitting at 3633 rating and this is the latest sim I just did:


Also, has it been tested in terms of the opener what is best to do if you get a Kael'thas-procc? I'm assuming it would be worth to hard cast the Pyro as long as RoP and Combustion wouldn't run out before it finishes, especially considering it's likely I'll have +3000 haste from 2-set procc during opener.

Thoughts?

[kamui]

You still stack Crit and ignore everything else. Haste value may have increased but it's not any significantly better than Int or Vers (and Mastery is still better anyways at 2+ targets). Stack crit and treat all else as equal.

[lopstar]

I have 14500 crit rating and 4100 haste rating, and my scale factors are almost the same.
Just keep stacking crit.

[driz]

• The value of Haste increases if the fight is short and if you use Cinderstorm. What fight duration are you simming with?300seconds; no cs talented
• Mastery is recommended alongside Crit because its value extremely hard with number of targets. If you sim with 3 targets stacked, you'll see that Mastery is as good as Crit. Mastery is bad only in pure single target fights such as Nythendra and Ursoc. For fight such as Dragons of Nightmare, its value is really high because there are occasionally high HP adds.i did separate sims for more than 1 raid boss and found a balance point between mastery/haste for a balance between ST / MT. this post was only in terms of ST
• If you were sat, it was because you kept dying or not doing mechanics, not because of your numbers. It's a benefit to have more DPS as long as mechanics are done properly.As i mentioned, i requested to be sat because i felt my dps was holding us back. it was pretty low. I dont typically get "sat" because i do mechanics well.
• Take Cinderstorm over Kindling for most Mythic+. While Kindling can be good, it's high maintenance to use it optimally in dungeons and Cinderstorm can be consistently strong (provided you don't accidentally Cinderbarrage mobs). Frankly, your damage should be higher than 300k on most trash packs for your gear level.my average dmg is significantly higher than 300k on trash packs, again, this is clearly in terms of of ST

replying in-line, thanks for the replies, they didn't really address any of my questions at all, but i appreciate the effort

[Frosted]

Snip large post

1800 is a breakpoint, it is not a cap of any sort.

As for your performance in raids, no idea. This thread isn't really here to ask for help of that sort.

[Architech]

As Frosted stated, 1800 haste is not a cap, but it is - I think - a clear breakpoint. Indeed it is evident in Driz's Reforge plot

I'm sitting on ~3000 (9.27%) hate, ~400 (1.07%) vers, and ~3600 (13.77%) mastery (on top of 11491 (~57%) crit).

A step increase in DPS from haste is visible around the 1800 haste mark. This is a break point. It then continues its approximately linear relationship of haste to DPS.

[driz]

thanks guys! i think my mental block here was thinking of breakpoint as a cap. it makes a lot of sense now. What i ended up doing is running a lot of sims for AOE and ST on different raid boss types and numbers, getting the datapoints and then trying to hit my middle ground area. It seems to be working pretty well.. i dropped about 2.5% haste so far and put it between vers and mastery (just what the gear had) and i saw (as expected) a nice increase in ignite damage and a nice boost on my opener and average damage in ST and AOE type raid bosses. I got so used to caps in previous expansions my mind didn't even accept breakpoint as a thing

[azzastar]

Got a trinket related problem guys. Guild downed Mythic Renferel last night and i bonus rolled Twisting Winds 880. My current trinkets are Sinew 895 and Baton 830 with socket. Iv simmed the combinations Sinew/baton and Sinew/TW and the results were 307452DPS(sinew/baton) and 328829DPS(sinew/TW). Now, im using the latest build, but im getting the feeling that simc is using the old version of Twisting winds, hence the vast difference in DPS. I'm not entirely sure though. What you guys think? Twisting Winds 880 or Baton 830 with socket?

[Tagain]

What you guys think? Twisting Winds 880 or Baton 830 with socket?

Go with Baton. From my experience TW proc is super weak and not worth it.

[Nyarlathotep]

A question about the rules of thumb regarding ilvl and sockets in post #2. I'm assuming that the calculations and sims done here are before the gem nerf (250 crit -> 150 crit)?
And if so, what would the new rule of thumb be for jewelry, main and small armor pieces? I'm guessing a linear adjustment (like 10 ilvls * 150/250 = 6 ilvls for a main piece for example) would be an oversimplification...

[xirrohon]

From what I can tell, using the Pyraz Legendary is a DPS loss, correct?

[Tschebu]

I tried to get stat weights for the character "Uhuri" from Antonidas(EU) with the simcraft, you posted at the beginning of the thread and i got those:


<stat name="Int" value="9.26" normalized="1.00" scaling_error="0.40" delta="0"/>
<stat name="SP" value="9.05" normalized="0.98" scaling_error="0.40" delta="1138"/>
<stat name="Vers" value="8.76" normalized="0.95" scaling_error="0.40" delta="1138"/>
<stat name="Mastery" value="8.15" normalized="0.88" scaling_error="0.40" delta="1138"/>
<stat name="Crit" value="7.49" normalized="0.81" scaling_error="0.43" delta="1138"/>
<stat name="Haste" value="-4.99" normalized="-0.54" scaling_error="0.44" delta="1138"/>

cant understand how crit is giving less dps than Mastery, int and vers.
and i can even less understand, why the value of Haste is -4,99 per point.

These are the stats:

# gear_ilvl=864.44
# gear_stamina=22079
# gear_intellect=23146
# gear_crit_rating=10910
# gear_haste_rating=4923
# gear_mastery_rating=3240
# gear_versatility_rating=960
# gear_avoidance_rating=419
# gear_armor=1689


pls help xd

[kamui]

I tried to get stat weights for the character "Uhuri" from Antonidas(EU) with the simcraft, you posted at the beginning of the thread and i got those:


<stat name="Int" value="9.26" normalized="1.00" scaling_error="0.40" delta="0"/>
<stat name="SP" value="9.05" normalized="0.98" scaling_error="0.40" delta="1138"/>
<stat name="Vers" value="8.76" normalized="0.95" scaling_error="0.40" delta="1138"/>
<stat name="Mastery" value="8.15" normalized="0.88" scaling_error="0.40" delta="1138"/>
<stat name="Crit" value="7.49" normalized="0.81" scaling_error="0.43" delta="1138"/>
<stat name="Haste" value="-4.99" normalized="-0.54" scaling_error="0.44" delta="1138"/>

cant understand how crit is giving less dps than Mastery, int and vers.
and i can even less understand, why the value of Haste is -4,99 per point.

These are the stats:

# gear_ilvl=864.44
# gear_stamina=22079
# gear_intellect=23146
# gear_crit_rating=10910
# gear_haste_rating=4923
# gear_mastery_rating=3240
# gear_versatility_rating=960
# gear_avoidance_rating=419
# gear_armor=1689


pls help xd

Stat weights are sensitive to many factors. Fight duration and number of targets are important to know.

[Imaskar]

But negative scaling? Seems wrong.

[Tschebu]

I tried to get stat weights for the character "Uhuri" from Antonidas(EU) with the simcraft, you posted at the beginning of the thread and i got those:


<stat name="Int" value="9.26" normalized="1.00" scaling_error="0.40" delta="0"/>
<stat name="SP" value="9.05" normalized="0.98" scaling_error="0.40" delta="1138"/>
<stat name="Vers" value="8.76" normalized="0.95" scaling_error="0.40" delta="1138"/>
<stat name="Mastery" value="8.15" normalized="0.88" scaling_error="0.40" delta="1138"/>
<stat name="Crit" value="7.49" normalized="0.81" scaling_error="0.43" delta="1138"/>
<stat name="Haste" value="-4.99" normalized="-0.54" scaling_error="0.44" delta="1138"/>

cant understand how crit is giving less dps than Mastery, int and vers.
and i can even less understand, why the value of Haste is -4,99 per point.

These are the stats:

# gear_ilvl=864.44
# gear_stamina=22079
# gear_intellect=23146
# gear_crit_rating=10910
# gear_haste_rating=4923
# gear_mastery_rating=3240
# gear_versatility_rating=960
# gear_avoidance_rating=419
# gear_armor=1689


pls help xd

Stat weights are sensitive to many factors. Fight duration and number of targets are important to know.

Like i've written, i've taken the simcraft options from Frosted:
450 seconds
single target etc.

[jacket882]

Hi,

Will the stats and comparisons be updated now that we're in Emerald nightmare heroic / mythic levels?

Thanks

[Frosted]

Give me your profile that is producing negative weights.