Results on 7.1 fire relics

[Curnivore]

These are done on the default T19H profile, with the difference that it's on Kindling instead of Cinderstorm since that's what most are doing though I doubt the results would be different. This is a basic test of switching out only one relic for another of the same ilevel (the default profile runs 3 pyro dmg relics so only the 1st pyro relic was swapped).



The error is ~196DPS which means the first positions are within error. I will run them later on a non-potato PC.

I may add more tests later if needed on +5/+10/+15 ilevels of the relic being swapped, but it's more work since I currently force the ilevel of the weapon and each +5 on a relic does not seem to give exactly the same ilevel to the weapon each time, and to do it properly I'd need to use the right relic bonus ids.

Update: The order is similar on 250,000 iterations. With ~62 DPS error, the first two are practically identical in rank.



Update: I figured we can run +1/+2/+3/+0 on weapon ilevel (and not relic ilevel) since there is a good chance the +ilevel for weapon shown on the tooltip is an integer and sometimes that jumps from +1 to +2 per 5 ilevels of relic.



Error is ~120DPS

update: 2 target, ~300DPS error:



4 target, ~500DPS error:

[Lahrast]

since you have already a batch sim set up, could you possibly run them with the legendary bracers equipped? (just the first three) i'd wager there might be some shuffeling around going on (namely pyro > ignite > fb casttime)

[Curnivore]

There is a chance the +weapon ilevel relics show on the tooltip is an integer which means it'd be unreliable to make simple guides of "replace at +5 ilevels of relic" etc. because sometimes +5 ilevels of relics make a jump from +1 weapon ilevel to +2.

since you have already a batch sim set up, could you possibly run them with the legendary bracers equipped? (just the first three) i'd wager there might be some shuffeling around going on (namely pyro > ignite > fb casttime)

Yes, sure, I'll run them on 25K iterations.



The error is ~235 DPS.

[Lahrast]

first of all - how the profile made a dps-jump of 30k... ridiculous -.-
thanks for running the numbers

so.. to sum this all up:
pyro > fb cast > ignite > crit dmg for normal profile
pyro > ignite > crit dmg > fb cast for bracer equiped

this makes me wonder if in terms of potential-maximization and versatility one should consider the ignite relics the best choice regardless of setup. there are enough fights where ignite makes up a larger portion of our dps than even pyroblast (even with bracers) and on those fights the ignite relic will probably outshine every other by a huge margin

something like:
no bracers -> ignite = pyro > fbcast
bracers -> ignite = pyro > crit dmg

also considering the ilvl of our weapon increases it's int, which scales exponentially, i'd wager to assume the coice of minor trait for the relic will be inconsequential once you hit ilvl900+

[Curnivore]

I figured we can run +1/+2/+3/+0 on weapon ilevel (and not relic ilevel) since there is a good chance the +ilevel for weapon shown on the tooltip is an integer and sometimes that jumps from +1 to +2 per 5 ilevels of relic.



Error is ~195DPS

On 120 DPS error:

[Curnivore]

considering the ilvl of our weapon increases it's int, which scales exponentially, i'd wager to assume the coice of minor trait for the relic will be inconsequential once you hit ilvl900+

Whatever way int scales, wouldn't a flat percentage increase on basic spells be always an important increase?

[mart2090]

So correct me if I'm wrong but if all of the relics are worth approximately the same at the same ilvl then there is no longer a "pyro = 15 ilvl" and you should take the highest ilvl relic you can get. Then if you have two relics which are the same ilvl then pryo is clearly the best? Sorry if I'm reading this wrong.

[Nurf]

So correct me if I'm wrong but if all of the relics are worth approximately the same at the same ilvl then there is no longer a "pyro = 15 ilvl" and you should take the highest ilvl relic you can get. Then if you have two relics which are the same ilvl then pryo is clearly the best? Sorry if I'm reading this wrong.

I'm not sure you could say pyro is clearly best. They're very close, and on cleave figets ignite may pull ahead, and on heavy movement fights FB cast might be better for the quicker casts. Always keep in mind the sims we have are basically attacking a dummy.

[Curnivore]

So correct me if I'm wrong but if all of the relics are worth approximately the same at the same ilvl then there is no longer a "pyro = 15 ilvl"

I don't see them being equal. e.g. a defensive that gives +2 weapon ilevel is worse than some relics that give only +1 or some that even give nothing extra. I should clarify something here again. Some relics give instead of only +1 weapon ilevel, +2 weapon ilevels every 5 ilevels of relic. For example 870 to 875 seems to go from +49 to +51 weapon instead of +50. Since there is a good change that is actually an integer addition, we can't just say "replace at +5 relic ilevel" etc. so it might be best to talk only about "+weapon" additions. I've talked about it a bit at the IRC channel of simc and it seems to be the case unless someone has an objection and it's a fractional addition to weapon level.

[debil]

Could you sim it with 2, 3, 6 targets or link your simcraft config? I have strong feeling that ignite relics will be op on that fights

[Devilsfury]

So basicly what i get from this, is that ilvl is key and on same ilvl we look what trait is better but it's such a small difference that we don't pick an 850 pyro relic over a 865 molten armor relic anymore right?

[Curnivore]

we don't pick an 850 pyro relic over a 865 molten armor relic anymore right?

A 850 relic does +43 weapon level if we look at the tooltip. 865 does +48 which is a +5 increase in weapon level. A +3 defensive seems to beat all +0 relics here so yes, it would be better on the defensive of +48 instead of any on +43.

[Curnivore]

Could you sim it with 2, 3, 6 targets or link your simcraft config? I have strong feeling that ignite relics will be op on that fights

I'll do 2 and 4 since I don't have a lot of (cpu) time.

2 target, ~300DPS error:



I guess you're right, already ignite seems higher on 2 patchwerks

hrm, interesting that fireball cast time remains strong.

4 target, ~500DPS error:

[Lahrast]

considering the ilvl of our weapon increases it's int, which scales exponentially, i'd wager to assume the coice of minor trait for the relic will be inconsequential once you hit ilvl900+

Whatever way int scales, wouldn't a flat percentage increase on basic spells be always an important increase?

no that's the misconception, percentage increase is a lineare increase (x*1,y) while each ilvl increases the amount of int exponentially (e^ilvl) so a percentage boost will always stay the same but when you increase the ilvl from 900 too 901 its a much higher gain than for example from 850 to 851, it's a static gain yes, but the gain per ilvl increases exponentially the higher the "base" ilvl already is

[debil]

I guess you're right, already ignite seems higher on 2 patchwerks

hrm, interesting that fireball cast time remains strong.

Can you give me your simcraft config? I'm interested in that fireball cast time

Anyway i guess it is better to stack ignite instead of pyroblast. But i'm interested how it is changed with the bracers

[Curnivore]

considering the ilvl of our weapon increases it's int, which scales exponentially, i'd wager to assume the coice of minor trait for the relic will be inconsequential once you hit ilvl900+

Whatever way int scales, wouldn't a flat percentage increase on basic spells be always an important increase?

no that's the misconception, percentage increase is a lineare increase (x*1,y) while each ilvl increases the amount of int exponentially (e^ilvl) so a percentage boost will always stay the same but when you increase the ilvl from 900 too 901 its a much higher gain than for example from 850 to 851, it's a static gain yes, but the gain per ilvl increases exponentially the higher the "base" ilvl already is

I guess you exaggerate that effect on the microcosm of an individual upgrade because a trait-upgrade at 900 ilevel will build upon all the exponential (as you claim) ilevel-upgrades that happened before it and only a potential addition of 1 or 2 ilevel-upgrades that happens next with a relic will have a chance to trample a trait-upgrade with an effect of that sort.

[Curnivore]

Can you give me your simcraft config?

It might be best to give you the base I worked with. I don't have the originals on this PC anyway.

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mage="pyro dmg +0" level=110 race=troll role=spell position=back talents=1222121 artifact=54:0:0:0:0:748:1:749:3:750:3:751:6:752:3:754:3:755:3:756:3:758:1:759:1:762:1:763:1:1340:1 spec=fire head=collar_of_enclosure,id=134424,bonus_id=1727/1517 neck=chain_of_the_underking,id=134495,bonus_id=1727/1517,enchant=mark_of_the_hidden_satyr shoulders=amice_of_the_unfurling_tempest,id=134432,bonus_id=1727/1517 back=cloak_of_manaspun_silk,id=134410,bonus_id=1727/1517,enchant=binding_of_intellect chest=tunic_of_smoldering_ire,id=137352,bonus_id=1727/1517 wrists=harrowing_soulspun_bracers,id=134437,bonus_id=1727/1517 hands=gloves_of_unseen_evil,id=137506,bonus_id=1727/1517 waist=timebreached_waistband,id=137413,bonus_id=1727/1517 legs=legwraps_of_rampant_turmoil,id=137453,bonus_id=1727/1517 feet=paranoid_sprinters,id=137319,bonus_id=1727/1517 finger1=gnawed_thumb_ring,id=134526,bonus_id=1727/1517,enchant=binding_of_critical_strike finger2=band_of_callous_dominance,id=134528,bonus_id=1727/1517,enchant=binding_of_critical_strike trinket1=naraxas_spiked_tongue,id=137349,bonus_id=1727/1517 trinket2=wriggling_sinew,id=139326,bonus_id=1805 main_hand=felomelorn,id=128820,ilevel=894 off_hand=heart_of_the_phoenix,id=133959

The important things are the ilevel of the artifact is forced with main_hand= with ilevel=, and the relics are actually never entered explictly. The trait ranks are edited on the artifact= line.

For example you can reduce pyro (ID 751, the rest are below) from 6 to 5, then increase another to 4 from 3 for the same ilevel of weapon, or add a level to weapon and turn it to 895 from 894.

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#pyro dmg 751 #ignite dmg 755 #fireball dmg 754 #defensive 756 #fire crit dmg 752 #fireball cast time 749 #fire blast dmg 750

You can use the copy= method and only append artifact= and main_hand= lines or if you're lazy like I was that day just copy paste the whole thing with a new mage= name.

update: full example:

Code: Select all

mage="pyro dmg +0" level=110 race=troll role=spell position=back talents=1222121 artifact=54:0:0:0:0:748:1:749:3:750:3:751:6:752:3:754:3:755:3:756:3:758:1:759:1:762:1:763:1:1340:1 spec=fire head=collar_of_enclosure,id=134424,bonus_id=1727/1517 neck=chain_of_the_underking,id=134495,bonus_id=1727/1517,enchant=mark_of_the_hidden_satyr shoulders=amice_of_the_unfurling_tempest,id=134432,bonus_id=1727/1517 back=cloak_of_manaspun_silk,id=134410,bonus_id=1727/1517,enchant=binding_of_intellect chest=tunic_of_smoldering_ire,id=137352,bonus_id=1727/1517 wrists=harrowing_soulspun_bracers,id=134437,bonus_id=1727/1517 hands=gloves_of_unseen_evil,id=137506,bonus_id=1727/1517 waist=timebreached_waistband,id=137413,bonus_id=1727/1517 legs=legwraps_of_rampant_turmoil,id=137453,bonus_id=1727/1517 feet=paranoid_sprinters,id=137319,bonus_id=1727/1517 finger1=gnawed_thumb_ring,id=134526,bonus_id=1727/1517,enchant=binding_of_critical_strike finger2=band_of_callous_dominance,id=134528,bonus_id=1727/1517,enchant=binding_of_critical_strike trinket1=naraxas_spiked_tongue,id=137349,bonus_id=1727/1517 trinket2=wriggling_sinew,id=139326,bonus_id=1805 main_hand=felomelorn,id=128820,ilevel=894 off_hand=heart_of_the_phoenix,id=133959 copy="fireball dmg +0" artifact=54:0:0:0:0:748:1:749:3:750:3:751:5:752:3:754:4:755:3:756:3:758:1:759:1:762:1:763:1:1340:1 main_hand=felomelorn,id=128820,ilevel=894 copy="fireball dmg +2" artifact=54:0:0:0:0:748:1:749:3:750:3:751:5:752:3:754:4:755:3:756:3:758:1:759:1:762:1:763:1:1340:1 main_hand=felomelorn,id=128820,ilevel=896 #pyro dmg 751 #ignite dmg 755 #fireball dmg 754 #defensive 756 #fire crit dmg 752 #fireball cast time 749 #fire blast dmg 750

[magictricks]

These are done on the default T19H profile, with the differ...............

Ok so if i am reading this correctly a 885 blink/molten relic is basically the same as a 875 Fire Blast relic?,

[Curnivore]

These are done on the default T19H profile, with the differ...............

Ok so if i am reading this correctly a 885 blink/molten relic is basically the same as a 875 Fire Blast relic?,

I don't know. Let's see. An 885 is +53 weapon levels; an 875 is +51 so the difference is -2 (it's not always the same every 10 relic levels).

On these charts, a defensive at +2 is 431 DPS better at single target within an error of 120 DPS.

[Oderus]

These are done on the default T19H profile, with the differ...............

Ok so if i am reading this correctly a 885 blink/molten relic is basically the same as a 875 Fire Blast relic?,

I don't know. Let's see. An 885 is +53 weapon levels; an 875 is +51 so the difference is -2 (it's not always the same every 10 relic levels).

On these charts, a defensive at +2 is 431 DPS better at single target within an error of 120 DPS.

Great stuff Curnivore. I have a similar question as above... please help me with the math. An 880 Defensive at +52 levels vs an 865 FB cast time at +48 levels. So that's a +4 lvl difference, and the defensive will beat all DPS relics 4 levels under it? (even will beat everything 3 lvls under it?)

TL;DR: an 880 defensive beats any 865 relic?

Just want to ensure I'm reading this right. Thx!