[7.1.5] Let's Talk Rotation

[Frosted]

Earlier in the thread someone mentioned CU mid-burn in conjunction with the Kilt legendary to extend the burn. I tried this in the current Arcane APL.

I added this line below the current burn-cooldowns call to control CU use:

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actions.burn+=/charged_up,if=(equipped.132451&buff.arcane_charge.stack<=1)

and added a few variations of an arcane barrage line.

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actions.burn+=/arcane_barrage,if=(equipped.132451&cooldown.charged_up.remains=0&mana.pct<(100-(buff.arcane_charge.stack*0.03)))

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actions.burn+=/arcane_barrage,if=(equipped.132451&buff.arcane_power.down&buff.rune_of_power.down&cooldown.charged_up.remains=0))

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actions.burn+=/arcane_barrage,if=(equipped.132451&cooldown.charged_up.remains=0)

The best result as shown above was to simply ensure that as long as you will be gaining the full value of the Abarr regen, use Abarr+CU on cooldown inside burn.

[Kythos]

Nice discussion,

many mages look to these forums for facts so we can adjust our personal play styles. Opinions are warranted, just please label them as such.

regarding rotation,

with so much AOE/cleave in NH... will anyone try orb builds? i.e. Skorpyron

[Flameofwesty]

He guys few questions on rotation iv been getting mixxed info
Should I alway delay PoM for AP?
Should I use the AB CU combo off cooldown?
Do you only use AM inside AP if you are capped on charges?
Do you use CU at the start of your opener or do you hard cast to build your 4 charges?

[Kintoun]

He guys few questions on rotation iv been getting mixxed info
Should I alway delay PoM for AP?
Should I use the AB CU combo off cooldown?
Do you only use AM inside AP if you are capped on charges?
Do you use CU at the start of your opener or do you hard cast to build your 4 charges?

1) Usually yes. See earlier in thread. Syncing AP/PoM/MoA is a slight DPS increase and easier for a human to execute. However keep in mind if fight is going to end before you can use AP, definitely use PoM/MoA without it. See below proof.
2) Yes, 40s doesn't sync well with anything. But there are more "intelligent" ways to use it. e.g. with Kilt for mana gains, end of RoP or AP, beginning of burn phase, etc.
3) Never waste AM charges. Besides that, using all AM procs inside or outside AP is your preference. Math shows AM to be better to be used ASAP, but sims show it essentially doesn't make a difference.
4) I don't even need to sim to answer this one. CU at start. But for NH chances are you'll have Resonance anyways.

All tests run on commit c549f12485c0a4905965e774b29e8d411e4f788c Mage_Arcane_T19M_NH profile, default settings 100000 iterations.

Relevant APL changes for question #1:

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actions+=/mark_of_aluneth,if=target.time_to_die<cooldown.arcane_power.remains actions.burn+=/presence_of_mind,if=(buff.rune_of_power.remains<=2*action.arcane_blast.execute_time)&target.time_to_die<cooldown.arcane_power.remains actions.cooldowns+=/presence_of_mind,sync=arcane_power actions.init_burn=mark_of_aluneth,sync=arcane_power

[jimmyo]

Nice discussion,

many mages look to these forums for facts so we can adjust our personal play styles. Opinions are warranted, just please label them as such.

regarding rotation,

with so much AOE/cleave in NH... will anyone try orb builds? i.e. Skorpyron

I intend to try Orb on both Skorp and Chronomatic tonight, but I'm unsure about its usage on any of the later fights (e.g. adds seem too slow for use on Spellblade). I've always liked ABarr -> Orb -> AE spam in Mythic+, even in 7.1.0 when Orb did insignificant damage. Now it does more than a 4-charge AE. Sims on my character have Orb/OP to be close enough on the hectic-add cleave priority target damage (see below) to at least warrant a try.




Real question: Do i drop my 870 Intel/Vers (or even my 880 Int/Mastery) trinket for an 860 Aran's Ruby on Skorp?

[jacobsmage]

Nothing fancy to add.
But I wanted to thank you guys for all the sims you have done to work out the best rotation.

I'm just making the move to arcane now (no fire bracers) so I can kick ass on single target.
Practicing my rotation felt clunky as hell.
Now I know I can hold my cooldowns together, it is much easier to play.

Non-rotation question, but if you guys are keeping a second gear set, would you make it for arcane aoe or fire aoe? I was thinking of doing arcane for ST or burst cleave, and fire (mastery stacked, ignite relics) for sustained cleave.

[kiraqt]

btw is there a reason to not CU before pull and therefore get it earlier again + dont waste a keyboard click (unless macroed somehwere) in the opener?

- If you CU before combat, once you enter combat your charges drop to 1, that's 76% x3 = 218% less dmg on PoM combo, that sucks.

are u you that is the case? At least it didn't happen to me or I'm just imagining things ...

[tadeqt]

Thoughts on skipping last tick of evocation? Seems like way too much time wasted on that last tick to gain 10% mana sometimes.

[Drmatthew]

How many targets is the breakpoint for arcane explosion replacing arcane blast?

[Sol]

How many targets is the breakpoint for arcane explosion replacing arcane blast?

Fairly sure it's 3

[jacobsmage]

So at 3 targets we Arcane Explosion instead of Arcane Blast?
If there are any adds, we swap from Charged Up to Resonance?
And at 4+ targets we swap from Overpowered to Arcane Orb?

I'm struggling to keep up with the fire mages on our NH normal and heroic clear this week.
A lot of the fights have single target phases (which I can kick ass at), then cleave phases (which I feel lackluster).
Like on the High Botonist I tried arcane orbing through the boss, to hit the parasite adds, for some snap burst. Still felt fairly let behind by fire. Any tips or opinions would be great.

[Vhella]

Update (23/01): I performed pretty well in our NH-HM raid, (8/10) Single target felt great (especially with 2pc & shard). I think the fights are awesome, and quite arcane friendly actually (unpopular opinion) I can use my AE on aoe fights without risking problems to my raid (unlike Cenarius for example). I have two excellent legendaries so my opinion is of course a bit biased but I know the struggle of having utility ones. I also got my 4pc yesterday and didn't have much chance to try it out, but the bonus seems quite lackluster as we all foresaw...

I step away from Charged up for the moment and prefer Resonance. Nighthold has a lot of adds fights and even in single target I find Resonance to perform better for myself. However I think Charged up is great with The mystic Kilt (Frosted Sim).

I think your "infinite mana" burn is misusing spell recharge logic. Charges recharge sequentially, not independently. Your logic is assuming if you use charge 1 at x, it recharges at x+recharge, and if you use charge 2 at y you get it back at y+recharge. if this were true you could use 1 and 2 at the same time and they both come back at the same time, "recharge"-time. In reality, you'd get 1 back at recharge, and 2 back at recharge*2. The end result is you are assuming you have too many evocation charges after your initial 2 evo uses.

You are right, I didn't think about the sequential recharge. This is really just some napkin theorycrafting anyway
Great job updating the APL with the mystic kilt, it looks promising.

For the people wondering about AE over AB on two targets, I applied thjs method during our HM raid, and I'm having decent results with it. The only two real cleave fight I can think about are Chronomatic anomaly and Botanist, and even then, they are quickly followed by aoe phase. I didn't feel as unfair as previous fights like Mythic Odyn, Ursoc, Cenarius or Xavius where strong cleave were way ahead.

With the coming up changes I can see Arcane Orb shine on a couple of fights like maybe Tichondrius or Botanist.

[Zbucium]

How many targets is the breakpoint for arcane explosion replacing arcane blast?

Fairly sure it's 3

I would say AE > AB at 2 or 3 targets depending on what you're aiming for.

Let's look at numbers:
AB: costs 3% mana, 192.4% spell power coefficient, 2.25s cast time, chance to trigger AM 30%
AE: cost 2% mana, 75% spell power coefficient, instant, 1.5s GCD, chance to trigger AM 15% per cast!!!
(these numbers are before the Arcane Charge multipliers)

If we look at mana% per cast time they are tied at 3/22.5 = 2/1.5 = 1.(3)
For pure dmg at 2 targets AE does 150% spell power while AB does 192.4% so AB wins.

Chance to proc Arcane Missiles: from the tooltip "Each damaging spell cast has a 15% chance to activate Arcane Missiles. Chance doubled for Arcane Blast"

For long living adds in raids or boss fights at 2 targets AB wins by far because of more dmg done and also because of double chance to trigger AMs (Arcane Missiles procs per cast, not per target hit).

However, in dungeons I prefer to use AE at 2 targets because i can cast on the move and ABarr -> AEx4 -> ABarr is shorter than ABarr -> ABx4 -> ABarr (so more Barrages).
It also gives the possibility to move ahead of the group and drink in between pulls, run out of crap while casting, etc.

[Bigryan]

So I've got the legendary helm and bracers and between the two Evocates it seems like I never need to ABarr to prevent going OOM. Is there any idea how that should change the rotation or talent choices for me?

[Asara]

So I've got the legendary helm and bracers and between the two Evocates it seems like I never need to ABarr to prevent going OOM. Is there any idea how that should change the rotation or talent choices for me?

Well, with that much mana and mana regen, might want to try Temporal Flux when overpowered gets a 10% nerf? That talent has potential, but only for insane mana regen like u

[Maëlane]

Hi guys,

I'm a new arcane player and I have a, maybe, silly question.

We cast the BL or TW during the opener of some NH fights. In this case, I noticed that I burn all my mana in approximately 30 sec (depending the AM procs). Should I evoc directly when I have no more mana, even if i will waste +- 15% of the BL time, or should I enter in a mini-conserve phase and temporise my evoc until the end of the BL ?

Currently when i'm out of mana at the end of the opener, I ABarr to gain +12% mana (I'm a happy owner of the kilt). I play also with CU but as I cast it just before the first AP, I don't get the CD during this mini-conserve phase. So I just rebuilt AB charges under BL and cast AM on procs before evoc when BL is over.

What do you think about this solution ? Is it good, or I'm wrong ? Thank you for your advices !

[gurudox]

@Maelane,

This might be one of the situations where you do what works for you, by reacting to your situation. The general consensus has always been to simply burn until OOM, and then evocate and resume burn. The upside of evocation during BL/TW is that your evocation will complete faster, which is also a dps gain vs evocating at your normal haste. Due to the way kilt works, though, if you have a way to prolong your dps during the BL/TW window, that might be a more potent way to go. It would be really hard to know for sure without doing some testing. Try your opener on a target dummy a few times each way, and see what your averages are.

For what it's worth, I do suspect this problem will go away for you once you have 2pc tier and/or relics that increase your AM proc chance, as you should most often be able to make it through BL/TW without completely draining your mana pool, so long as you aren't munching your AM procs. There will always be the occasional unlucky pull, but those should be outliers.

[Maëlane]

@Maelane,

This might be one of the situations where you do what works for you, by reacting to your situation. The general consensus has always been to simply burn until OOM, and then evocate and resume burn. The upside of evocation during BL/TW is that your evocation will complete faster, which is also a dps gain vs evocating at your normal haste. Due to the way kilt works, though, if you have a way to prolong your dps during the BL/TW window, that might be a more potent way to go. It would be really hard to know for sure without doing some testing. Try your opener on a target dummy a few times each way, and see what your averages are.

For what it's worth, I do suspect this problem will go away for you once you have 2pc tier and/or relics that increase your AM proc chance, as you should most often be able to make it through BL/TW without completely draining your mana pool, so long as you aren't munching your AM procs. There will always be the occasional unlucky pull, but those should be outliers.

Thank you a lot for your very complete answer !

[Solidpat]

I tested out the 4P bonus tonight on a few bosses. What a piece of crap bonus... At least with the TW ring and shield neck as legendaries.

Before 4P Bonus: I would start my 2nd OP burn as Evoc has about 40-45 secs left on CD and I would reach 0 mana byt he time its off CD.

After 4P Bonus: I start my 2nd OP burn as Evoc has about 20 secs left on CD and it just waits there for 20-25 seconds until I reach 0 mana.

So far I can safely say that it had no impact on my dps at all! I think this will go down as the worst tier bonus we have ever seen. Unless we have an ability that reduces AP cd, I don,t really see a use for it.

[jimmyo]

I tested out the 4P bonus tonight on a few bosses. What a piece of crap bonus... At least with the TW ring and shield neck as legendaries.

Before 4P Bonus: I would start my 2nd OP burn as Evoc has about 40-45 secs left on CD and I would reach 0 mana byt he time its off CD.

After 4P Bonus: I start my 2nd OP burn as Evoc has about 20 secs left on CD and it just waits there for 20-25 seconds until I reach 0 mana.

So far I can safely say that it had no impact on my dps at all! I think this will go down as the worst tier bonus we have ever seen. Unless we have an ability that reduces AP cd, I don,t really see a use for it.

I didn't like 4p initially either, because more often than not evocation's adjusted cd would finish mid-AP. I couldn't dump mana fast enough at that point to get significant benefit. Even if I tried less conserve phases, I had similar timing problems. A 3 sec reduction would probably fix the problem as then 2nd evo would come off before 2nd AP. It also seems buggy to the point that I am unsure if the cd reduces every time.

However, I got the legendary helm last night (first dps legend, had chest+neck), and the 4p interplay is very nice. Since I can bank an evocation charge, the cd reduction from 4p is not going to waste. As a result, I was able to go barrageless (not counting ABarr+Cu) on Star Augur through the first 4 evocates last night. It wasn't until P4 AE spam when I got some terrible AM proc luck that I had to conserve.