Nighthold Arcane Specs.

[jacobsmage]

I kept trying new specs as we progged through normal and heroic. Also considered switching to fire on some bosses. Thought I'd put together some info in case others were also fairly unsure how to get the best dps out of your mage in nighthold.

Currently for Heroic. Going off best logs. All subject to change, ideally I'd love some discussion on this so we can get arcane to top mage parse more often.

Skorpyron:

Some players used IF, AO, and some even used CU. Shimmer also viable.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/1 ... pec=Arcane
Best arcane parse 3.3m dps behind fire (lol).

Chromatic Anomaly:

Some used CU, Shimmer or IF.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/1 ... pec=Arcane
Best arcane parse 12k dps behind fire.

Trilliax:

Many used CU, some used IF or Shimmer.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/1 ... pec=Arcane
Best arcane spec 19k behind frost (beating fire).

Spellblade Aluriel:

One used IF, some lower ones used CU.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/1 ... pec=Arcane
Arcane winning top mage parse.

Tichondrius:

Some used AO, IF, NT, Shimmer.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/1 ... pec=Arcane
Arcane winning top mage parse.

Star Augur Etraeus:

Some used Resonance, few used IF or shimmer.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/1 ... pec=Arcane
Arcane winning top mage parse.

Krosus:

Some used Resonance, IF or shimmer.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/1 ... pec=Arcane
Arcane winning top mage parse.

High Botanist Tel'arn:

Many used CU. Some used IF and shimmer.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/1 ... pec=Arcane
Best arcane parse 138k dps behind fire.

Grand Magistrix Elisande:
This one is stuffing up atm. Looks like resonance, and some using IF but most using RoP.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/1 ... pec=Arcane
Best arcane parse 118k dps behind frost (90k dps behind fire)

Gul'dan:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/1 ... pec=Arcane
Best arcane 67k dps behind fire.


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Would love some discussion, try to get arcane ahead on the close fights.
Would be great to not have to go fire to stay competitive on some of these.

I've got some spec and playstyle questions I'd love confirmed too, if some good simcrafters or arcane mages could discuss.

1) 1 target, Charged Up, but as soon as there are adds we spec to resonance, correct?
2) I've been switching from Arcane Blast to Arcane Explosion at 3 adds, not using AM procs at 5+, but some people have said the number is 2 or 4 adds. Confirmation?
3) On fairly constant switch fights like High Botanist and Guldan, which often have a few adds together, I've been considering Unstable Magic as I constantly drop Erosion stacks. Thoughts?
4) And has anyone has success with AO in any raids? I tried barraging the parasite adds, then arcane orbing them (through the bosses first) and it felt decent. But I was still pretty far off our fire mages. UM might have helped.
5) Also RoP seems standard for ST and AoE, but I see some people taking IF. Is shimmer/slipstream not enough movement for these people so they want IF? Or is the aoe constant and not burst, so you feel it helps more?

As answers come in, I'll update my questions to answers and put peoples opinions into the boss sections.

[jimmyo]

1) I run Resonance in single target as is, and the difference in sims on single target is less than 1%. Most players using Charged Up have the Kilt, which gives you a better excuse to AB -> CU than those without the Kilt. There are certainly advantages beyond the Kilt usage that CU provides though

a) You can start your CD burn immediately on pull thereby reducing the chance of losing AP/RoP time due to a mechanic.

b) It provides one more instant cast ability every 40 seconds (barrage + CU) that you can use during mobility phases.

2) AE is better DPM, DPS, and equivalent MPS to AB at 2-targets. The only difference is that AB has twice the AM proc chance. You can use AE at 2-targets, but if there is a priority target (e.g. empowered eyes on Gul'Dan), use AB instead.

3) UM is terrible for Arcane, don't bother. If you're really concerned about Erosion stacks falling off, use NT. However, AE and MoA both stack Erosion fast enough in cleave situations that this should not be a concern.

4) AO is decently fun on both Skorpyron & Chronomatic, but the timers do not work well with Botanist, Spellblade, or Gul'dan add spawns. Furthermore, Overpowered is, well, overpowered. The ability to spam AE at +70% damage for 13-16 seconds with almost 0 mana cost far outweighs the benefit of AO. AO is still great in M+ though.

5a) I swapped to IF on Elisande because our raid was terrible at dodging the rings and I had to play the "follow me guys" role. Next week, I will go back to RoP and just blink through the rings. Honestly, IF for "movement" is pretty risky. The assumption is that you're punished less by movement in IF than in RoP. In reality, you're going to be moving a lot during 4-5-4 points in IF, which is pretty bad. If you can find 12 seconds of stationary time (which in most circumstances you can), use RoP.

5b) I prefer Slipstream to Shimmer, because you can always keep 1 AM proc banked to dodge something. Displacement gives you extra blinks as is. The only thing I miss from shimmer is mid-cast blink.


Arcane is not as far behind fire as it seems (except on Skorp, though perhaps on mythic the spawns will live longer which helps Arcane). Arcane will rise in rankings in the next few weeks, Fire is likely to stay stagnant. Most top mages have been fire since the expac came out. That means they have BIS Fire Legendaries, lots of Trait investment in fire, and lots of time perfecting their fire rotation. Conversely, almost no one was playing Arcane until last week. As more top mages invest in their Arcane sets, you will see Arcane steadily rise in the charts. Where it will finish, I'm not sure (likely around Elemental's level, maybe a bit higher).

[Tobylicious]

Just a quick question, should I always use CU not matter what boss fight, with the kilt ofc, or should I switch to Resonance on fights with some AoE? Like Skorpyron for example.

[kiraqt]

tbh its personal choice. the difference isnt that big even with kilt imo

personally i like CU more as you're getting more flexible with using arcane barrage

[Mage]

5a) I swapped to IF on Elisande because our raid was terrible at dodging the rings and I had to play the "follow me guys" role. Next week, I will go back to RoP and just blink through the rings. Honestly, IF for "movement" is pretty risky. The assumption is that you're punished less by movement in IF than in RoP. In reality, you're going to be moving a lot during 4-5-4 points in IF, which is pretty bad. If you can find 12 seconds of stationary time (which in most circumstances you can), use RoP.

This is what I'm currently debating, IF vs RoP on mythic progression. RoP has much higher padding potential and priority DPS which will be important, but it is prone to getting rekt by mechanics if not played perfectly.

Most top mages have been fire since the expac came out. That means they have BIS Fire Legendaries, lots of Trait investment in fire, and lots of time perfecting their fire rotation. Conversely, almost no one was playing Arcane until last week. As more top mages invest in their Arcane sets, you will see Arcane steadily rise in the charts. Where it will finish, I'm not sure (likely around Elemental's level, maybe a bit higher).

It is true that almost everyone played fire at the beginning, but I don't think it takes 3k arcane parses to see what the potential is. I've been watching this guy since EN released and he is a pretty good benchmark IMO https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/c ... 13/latest/" target="_blank

[Effia]

It is true that almost everyone played fire at the beginning, but I don't think it takes 3k arcane parses to see what the potential is. I've been watching this guy since EN released and he is a pretty good benchmark IMO https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/c ... 13/latest/" target="_blank

That guy is a good example of what Arcane can do but he is not a good benchmark because he's been Arcane for the entire expansion thus far and is extremely experienced. He also has exceptionally good gear including pretty much BiS trinkets and kilt as well as being in a top progression guild.

I've been Arcane for the entire expansion, I'm clearly not as good a player as Delto but I am a good Arcane Mage and I compete quite well with my other guild members, especially if you delve into logs and discern what is padding and what is relevant damage. https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/c ... 80/latest/" target="_blank those are my logs and I was totally new to every single fight, didn't do anything on PTR so I had no idea when the dps windows were etc and I am overall happy with my performance, apart from Gul'Dan but our kill was a shit show and I died a couple times. Those are more realistic expectations and I have a lot of improvement and min maxing I can do.

[Mage]

That guy is a good example of what Arcane can do but he is not a good benchmark because he's been Arcane for the entire expansion thus far and is extremely experienced. He also has exceptionally good gear including pretty much BiS trinkets and kilt as well as being in a top progression guild.

You just described every top parsing fire mage in the game.
How is that not a good benchmark of what's possible?

[Effia]

You just described every top parsing fire mage in the game.
How is that not a good benchmark of what's possible?

It's unrealistic. Nothing's stopping you from aiming for the same levels of this guy but you don't need to reach those levels to be competitive and thus it's not really a realistic benchmark. Of course, it's subjective, you can set your benchmark at 950k dps if you want, but I doubt you'd get there.

[Deltoramasta]

Greetings,

Regarding Resonance V. Charged Up:

I agree the difference between them is not that noticeable. I used Resonance on every fight in heroic (I went in blind) and only found it to be "meh" on Krosus and Trill; I'd consider running CU on them. Having the free extra cleave on Arcane Barrage is desirable on the other 8 due to add spawns. Seeing giant crits on Arcane Barrage is also just dang fun.

Regarding Arcane Orb: *I'm dangerously biased on this talent*

The damage component of Arcane Orb is now actually respectable. On cleave the Barr/AO/Barr combo(?) is deadly with Resonance. I tried it on Tich and found the results to be positive; the slime cleaving was relatively strong if I could actually manage to aim the orb right. As of right now though, Overpowered still overshadows it in most situations. Short term cleave that occurs often seems to be AO's bread/butter, which is pretty rare. But we'll see how Mythic mechanics play out.

-Deltoramasta

[m3nsky]

Since I don't have kilt or any other dps increasing legendaries, or the 2 set as of yet, I actually run Supernova trying to offset mana issues with a free cast + hoping for AM proccs. Not on heavy AOE fights like Skorp/Aluriel etc.

With only a 60% Mana Reduction with OP we will have to start the burn with more mana available, something to consider.

After reading all the Mythic stuff in the DungJournal I am honestly not sure if swapping to Frost (I effin hate fire with a passion) will suit me better. We would need a ton of AM proccs to bank on so many bosses as the Mythic stuff involves so much more movement. Damage might be "ok" but with so much added movement I feel it will drop or point towards AE spam on the run ._.

@Deltoramasta:
Would you really run AO on Tich Mythic over Res though ?
Since the whole raid needs to get the orb buff from Illu Phase or you flat out die afterwards, I guess this is now where the raid CDs will be popped instead of after for the BL/30% increase.
- also, truly jealous looking at your profile, them legendaries/trinkets, so delicious.
KJ Trinket on Skorp and Aluriel alone is ridiculous.

[jimmyo]

Regarding Arcane Orb: *I'm dangerously biased on this talent*

The damage component of Arcane Orb is now actually respectable. On cleave the Barr/AO/Barr combo(?) is deadly with Resonance. I tried it on Tich and found the results to be positive; the slime cleaving was relatively strong if I could actually manage to aim the orb right. As of right now though, Overpowered still overshadows it in most situations. Short term cleave that occurs often seems to be AO's bread/butter, which is pretty rare. But we'll see how Mythic mechanics play out.

-Deltoramasta

I also really love AO. Hopefully the slight nerf to OP pushes AO usage up for Chronomatic, Spellblade, and Tich. I just can't see it's usage on Skorp being good enough when you also have to consider the 15-second burn phase.

[Jhazz]

I ran the same talents for the entirety of my guild's normal run tonight, aside from using Charged Up on Trilliax and Krosus, which coincidentally were probably my worst fights (as well as Gul'dan and Ellisandre where I literally had no idea what was happening).

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/c ... 936/latest" target="_blank (not sure how to link to normal, so ignore my poor heroic parses please )

Resonance is pretty much the pick of the bunch imo, and I don't think using Shimmer is ever correct.

[Kintoun]

Resonance is pretty much the pick of the bunch imo, and I don't think using Shimmer is ever correct.

I'm inclined to agree now. At NH release I was convinced Shimmer was correct. However I realized I was relying too much on Shimmer. As I get more comfortable with Displacement and more cautious when using blink, I can fully utilize Slipstream.

[jimmyo]

Took a while but we got Heroic Gul'dan last night. I saved the EAB for AP rather than using on CD w/ RoP. Second RoP I used for Eyes by blinking into center circle just outside melee group (so as not to hit them if eyes targeted me), and spamming AE. MoA I lined with AP except if Eyes were up soon.

Fight took nearly 12 mins and I screwed up mana a couple times (need to barrage eyes more) and was busy calling out everything for the raid in P3. Finished middle of the pack. #2 on Inquisitor (and top 4 on other two adds) in P1, #1 on unempowered eyes, near bottom on Guldan and empowered eyes.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/AL ... amage-done" target="_blank.

Not a great parse, but a kill is a kill. 2pc, 43 pts, Prydaz (940)/Belo'vir (dropped 875 4p from chest/cape for extra bubbles), 880 Whispers, Amp/Slip/Reso/RoP/Chrono/Ero/OP.

[Deltoramasta]

@m3nsky

Tough to say at this point. I'm not sure which is more beneficial: more sustained cleave, or more burst cleave. If AP needs to be used during down phase to help everybody to get a buff, then Overpowered would be more beneficial over AO. If add dps in the day phase is more important(Which is what I am guessing will be the case), then AO can be a powerful tool. It also can help burst down a few early bats in the down phase.

Point being that AO has "potential" to be better than Overpowered for a fight like Tich; but nobody knows for certain until we see how mythic needs its dps distributed. I will be extremely happy if AO turns out to be needed.

Also regarding Shimmer:

I miss this talent. Was so fun to be able to re-position / RoP at the same time. I don't think it has any practical purposes anymore except maybe Elisandre to do some crazy orb soaking / ring dodging shenanigans. Slipstream is just too convenient and "safe" compared to it, however.

-Deltoramasta

[Kythos]

@deltoramasta

First off, been looking at your logs for a long time, gratz on that top Skorp. parse!!


AO on Tich is great for cleave bursting the bloods/adds... so i agree with your statement there.

I think AO, and maybe even NT, can be great on fights like Botanist as well, especially later on when you can cleave 3 heath bars of the boss and 2 flowers with 1 orb.

I have yet to get a piece of Tier so far, so I can not speak for 2/4p, are you going to look into Temporal Flux for Krosus/Guam style fights, especially with the upcoming hotfix? (1/24/17)

excited to follow up and see how your doing in Mythic xD

[Bokonon]

Resonance is pretty much the pick of the bunch imo

Yup. The real strength of Arcane right now is bursty AE, and resonance really provides that. Sure, you give up a little ST dps, but that's not where you're making your money, anyway. If you have the kilt, resonance feels like AE god mode.

[m3nsky]

Greetings,

Regarding Resonance V. Charged Up:

I agree the difference between them is not that noticeable. I used Resonance on every fight in heroic (I went in blind) and only found it to be "meh" on Krosus and Trill; I'd consider running CU on them. Having the free extra cleave on Arcane Barrage is desirable on the other 8 due to add spawns. Seeing giant crits on Arcane Barrage is also just dang fun.

Regarding Arcane Orb: *I'm dangerously biased on this talent*

The damage component of Arcane Orb is now actually respectable. On cleave the Barr/AO/Barr combo(?) is deadly with Resonance. I tried it on Tich and found the results to be positive; the slime cleaving was relatively strong if I could actually manage to aim the orb right. As of right now though, Overpowered still overshadows it in most situations. Short term cleave that occurs often seems to be AO's bread/butter, which is pretty rare. But we'll see how Mythic mechanics play out.

-Deltoramasta

You wouldn't wanna make movies to teach us ? :p

[yarafx1]

I am still trying to figure out why people are wasting their time on using Rune Of Power, it feels wrong now. It barely sims higher then IF and mechanically is easier to not use on most to all fights.

[Effia]

I am still trying to figure out why people are wasting their time on using Rune Of Power, it feels wrong now. It barely sims higher then IF and mechanically is easier to not use on most to all fights.

Because if you can use it correctly, it's better; it's that simple.