Regarding fire's single-target DPS after 7.1.5

[Haruichi]

The stats are cold and unbiased: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics ... dataset=90" target="_blank

I have to agree with this. A lot of this discussion about the level of Fire ST damage post 7.1.5 is based on anecdotal evidence. You might have bracers and shard, and you might get insanely lucky with Pyro crits and Marquee procs, and you might not be the guy your raid leader asks to carry out a certain ask and so on. A discussion of interspec competitiveness begins and ends with a valid statistical foundation to help circumvent all the anecdotal evidence. With NH growing to be a couple of weeks old, that's beginning to be the case; and the statistics paint a less than flattering picture.

Whether or not mages being at the bottom of the barrel is intentional and something we as a class community should just accept is another matter entirely. But trying to negate well founded statistics with anecdotes never really works out.

[Syana]

Guys, don't draw conclusions based on you outplaying most of your team mates.
The stats are cold and unbiased: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics ... dataset=90" target="_blank

If we're talking ST here we should really look at the "damage to bosses" stat.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics ... ic=bossdps" target="_blank

But I feel like we really need to wait for the set bonuses to start kicking in before we can really see how we measure up to other classes.

[iPB]

But I feel like we really need to wait for the set bonuses to start kicking in before we can really see how we measure up to other classes.

I feel the pain of the mages in this thread. i really do. i even ended up paying for askmrrobot addon extra functionality after i thought simc wasnt adding it all up.

I am going to agree with the above post. but remembering that it only empowers braces more. less standing still time (at the loss of IF) but we dont know what this will do.

I have 4 legs, the only one i need is braces. and its tough to be replaced for Krosus when u soaking and doing everything well and the raid is bleeding out the low dps.

But have faith. Mages have always scaled. and later on in this expansion when we hit 60k intellect perhaps things will look different.

I was beaten today by a 876ilvl mage in EN nightmare normal with braces, and i have been reading everything and almost logging a call with Blizzard to say could you please put the effing braces on the shop so i could buy them with irl money.

I too have 895. i have shard helm and the amulet. aran trinket urn helya trinket and in a full highest spec my pyros hit for 880k. Not 3.8m. 43000 int 55% crit 19% haste 10% mastery = 400k if i can stand still and deliver. 7.1 i was 880 61% crit et al, and doing 480 ST. GFY blizzard.

But have faith. i feel better after reading this thread knowing that my time, and yours will come.

[Xenost]

Guys, don't draw conclusions based on you outplaying most of your team mates.
The stats are cold and unbiased: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics ... dataset=90" target="_blank

If we're talking ST here we should really look at the "damage to bosses" stat.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics ... ic=bossdps" target="_blank

But I feel like we really need to wait for the set bonuses to start kicking in before we can really see how we measure up to other classes.

That's stupid to look at it like that, you may want to look at "damage to boss" for ST bosses sure (krosus, star augur, anomaly, trilliax), but for overall stat it is pointless. Depending on how you play your MT you lose damage on the boss by doing MT spells/rotatioN.

[Hansger]

Anyone else seeing really low DPS numbers on Single Target, when you don't have the set pieces yet, nor do you have any damage Legendary items? I have Sephuz's and Belo'vir's...you, I'm super lucky! Sitting around 54% crit and 18% haste, so I'm running MI on most fights over RoP.

I don't have any logs at this moment since I'm at work, but I'm struggling just to hit 400k on most fights that don't involve a crazy amount of cleave. I'm ilevel 883, struggling on trinkets as well...but yea, just more frustrated right now than anything I guess.

Just need to have the RNG Blizz gods finally give me a break and get me some bracers/shard/belt at some point!

[Haruichi]

Guys, don't draw conclusions based on you outplaying most of your team mates.
The stats are cold and unbiased: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics ... dataset=90" target="_blank

If we're talking ST here we should really look at the "damage to bosses" stat.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics ... ic=bossdps" target="_blank

But I feel like we really need to wait for the set bonuses to start kicking in before we can really see how we measure up to other classes.

At any rate, the result isn't really much different:

80th; Krosus, Normal, last 2 weeks in NH:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics ... &boss=1842

80th, Krosus, Heroic, last 2 weeks in NH:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics ... &boss=1842

Data might a bit skewed because it's early days and set bonuses hasn't kicked and so forth, but the difference between top and bottom is 110K dps give or take. Arguably, that's not going to be offset by set bonuses, to name one factor; especially since every other class is in the same situation as we are in terms of set bonuses.

[Hansger]

Guys, don't draw conclusions based on you outplaying most of your team mates.
The stats are cold and unbiased: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics ... dataset=90" target="_blank

If we're talking ST here we should really look at the "damage to bosses" stat.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics ... ic=bossdps" target="_blank

But I feel like we really need to wait for the set bonuses to start kicking in before we can really see how we measure up to other classes.

At any rate, the result isn't really much different:

80th; Krosus, Normal, last 2 weeks in NH:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics ... &boss=1842

80th, Krosus, Heroic, last 2 weeks in NH:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics ... &boss=1842

Data might a bit skewed because it's early days and set bonuses hasn't kicked and so forth, but the difference between top and bottom is 110K dps give or take. Arguably, that's not going to be offset by set bonuses, to name one factor; especially since every other class is in the same situation as we are in terms of set bonuses.

I guess...at least we didn't roll Frost?? Either way, pretty sad how crippled all mage specs are on ST, and for them to be viable there needs to be a constant flow of Cleave damage. At least that's where I am, without having any Fire specific/damage legendary items.

[Syana]

That's stupid to look at it like that, you may want to look at "damage to boss" for ST bosses sure (krosus, star augur, anomaly, trilliax), but for overall stat it is pointless. Depending on how you play your MT you lose damage on the boss by doing MT spells/rotatioN.

I wouldn't exactly call it useless, because I feel like other classes would still have to deal with it the same, but you definitely have a point. Especially when the fire mage has a bit of an issue with switching to aoe/cleave when you have no FB/PF compared to how it is for some of the other classes.

[Lahrast]

Anyone else seeing really low DPS numbers on Single Target, when you don't have the set pieces yet, nor do you have any damage Legendary items? I have Sephuz's and Belo'vir's...you, I'm super lucky! Sitting around 54% crit and 18% haste, so I'm running MI on most fights over RoP.

I don't have any logs at this moment since I'm at work, but I'm struggling just to hit 400k on most fights that don't involve a crazy amount of cleave. I'm ilevel 883, struggling on trinkets as well...but yea, just more frustrated right now than anything I guess.

Just need to have the RNG Blizz gods finally give me a break and get me some bracers/shard/belt at some point!

i have the best example here -
guild mage has: ilvl892, bolvir, opus, sephus, norgannons' (a minute of silence please) sims for 450k dps
me: ilvl893, bracer, belt, head, norgannons' (not that it would mattter, never put them one once) i sim for 600k (!!!) ST

this is madness, and not because i sim for 600k - almost all dd's on this ilvl sim for 600k - only i do with BIS Legendary items and what happens if you don't have them can be seen on my poor guildmate who has no possibility to compete WHATSOEVER (he's actually considering quitting after 12yrs now)
he is basically where the statistics say we are (without legendaries) - rock bottom, even on fights with cleave he barely manages to compete with the middle of the pack (while i sit on top bc of my helm, really sad)

[Saróx]

I really don´t understand this clusterfuck of complaining. We arguably have the strongest AOE of all classes right now, so instead of sitting back QQ'ing about ST dmg then utilize the fact that we bring so much AOE to the table, that otherclasses can completly neglect AOE and tunnel ST instead.

ST is bad yea, it is right now, set pieces will improve it yes, but will people find it satisfying = no, is it the same issue with every other class out there? = yes, rogues, paladins, warriors, locks, priests, shamans etc... all depend on legendaries to, just like we do, do they deal baseline more dps than we do ST? = yes, do we fuck them up on AOE if we can play our class somewhat decent? = fuck yes.

So many fights in NH have a cleaving/AOE aspect, the only fight which really dossent have any (unless you fuck up badly) is krosus, and the dmg req, for krosus is really not hard to meet. Starcaller is a fight where ST is pretty much the only thing happening all the fight, and yet in the last phase you passivly get rid of the adds without anybody needing to switch and waste ST dmg = thats you doing that buddy GJ! Doing your rotation flawlessly might even bring you benefits in P2 aswell, being one of the few classes who can move and dash out consistent high dmg, if you go for the right statting. So seriously instead of knee capping yourself, then look at the fights you eccels at, Skorpyron, Anomaly, Trilliax(mages on bomb squad is fucking OP), Spellblade, Botanist, Tichondrius, elisande(yes elisande! being able to constantly benefit from the speed up bubble is a massive dps boost! it allows you to run Crit/mastery instead of Crit/haste which makes your Ignite a BEAST!) and ofcourse Gul'dan!, we might not be top dps here, but we most cirtainly brings alot of utility and burst dmg to the fight, being able to get rid of the eyes ASAP is so important and we can do that.

So yea if you wanna QQ about our spec being less optimal on ST, go ahead, but we really aint bad at all, and the faster you realise it the faster you will be able to push the ranks if thats what your in for, i know i am

[Imaskar]

So much is like, 5% more?
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics ... dataset=90" target="_blank
On two fights?
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics ... fficulty=4" target="_blank

[Lahrast]

Point is more, that with belt (more fs during 30%) and head, you're still even better by a huge margin

[Hansger]

I really don´t understand this clusterfuck of complaining. We arguably have the strongest AOE of all classes right now, so instead of sitting back QQ'ing about ST dmg then utilize the fact that we bring so much AOE to the table, that otherclasses can completly neglect AOE and tunnel ST instead.

ST is bad yea, it is right now, set pieces will improve it yes, but will people find it satisfying = no, is it the same issue with every other class out there? = yes, rogues, paladins, warriors, locks, priests, shamans etc... all depend on legendaries to, just like we do, do they deal baseline more dps than we do ST? = yes, do we fuck them up on AOE if we can play our class somewhat decent? = fuck yes.

So many fights in NH have a cleaving/AOE aspect, the only fight which really dossent have any (unless you fuck up badly) is krosus, and the dmg req, for krosus is really not hard to meet. Starcaller is a fight where ST is pretty much the only thing happening all the fight, and yet in the last phase you passivly get rid of the adds without anybody needing to switch and waste ST dmg = thats you doing that buddy GJ! Doing your rotation flawlessly might even bring you benefits in P2 aswell, being one of the few classes who can move and dash out consistent high dmg, if you go for the right statting. So seriously instead of knee capping yourself, then look at the fights you eccels at, Skorpyron, Anomaly, Trilliax(mages on bomb squad is fucking OP), Spellblade, Botanist, Tichondrius, elisande(yes elisande! being able to constantly benefit from the speed up bubble is a massive dps boost! it allows you to run Crit/mastery instead of Crit/haste which makes your Ignite a BEAST!) and ofcourse Gul'dan!, we might not be top dps here, but we most cirtainly brings alot of utility and burst dmg to the fight, being able to get rid of the eyes ASAP is so important and we can do that.

So yea if you wanna QQ about our spec being less optimal on ST, go ahead, but we really aint bad at all, and the faster you realise it the faster you will be able to push the ranks if thats what your in for, i know i am

True, we have great AoE and cleave, but all that results in us still being towards the bottom when you put it all together. Yes, we shine I 3 or 4 fights, but after that you basically feel like you are getting carried, and for me personally, that's not something I enjoy.

[tailes]

I really don´t understand this clusterfuck of complaining. We arguably have the strongest AOE of all classes right now, so instead of sitting back QQ'ing about ST dmg then utilize the fact that we bring so much AOE to the table, that otherclasses can completly neglect AOE and tunnel ST instead.

We have one of the top AOE but Affi lock and Moonkin are as good as we are on AOE plus both other classes dont suffer ST dmg to much when doing AOE.

I agree with your other points but again - we are OK but not super great as other classes get their benefits from these mechanics as well.
Right now there is no reason why a mage brings better utility over any other class nor does the damage rectify it.
If you look at pure numbers and do the math mage would not be a favourable class. However, RNG, items and player skill give mages a spot.

I am myself are most of the time in the 95+ range on each difficulty and do a lot of mechanics like bomb soaking, silence adds and so on but I feel fire needs a better balance of the legendaries and trinkets.

[Miakel]

Was lucky enough to win 2pc set tonight, gloves and helm, unfortunatly on the dummy and in sims, my dps is the same.

Working as intended?

[GamerBeast]

Was lucky enough to win 2pc set tonight, gloves and helm, unfortunatly on the dummy and in sims, my dps is the same.

Working as intended?

Well I do not think that the 2P is a DPS increase, its more of a cushion if you dont get a crit, meaning you can hold your crit around 50% and focus your gearing on Haste or Versatilty . Our GM ( also mage ) got his 2P yesterday and says that it improved his DPS, but he does have bracers so I dont know.

[Spookytooth]

We may have good parses on Skorp and Tich overall but if you don't have the helm or your guild doesn't help the pad you can pretty much say gg to those fights too.. all these people claiming it's okay because we have good aoe, our aoe simply isn't that godly. On the fights that count, elisande and guldan, we suck.

[Makz]

Was lucky enough to win 2pc set tonight, gloves and helm, unfortunatly on the dummy and in sims, my dps is the same.

Working as intended?

Unfortunately 2pc only makes Fire feel a bit smoother to play, but I was sticking with Arc/CoS set until I got all 4pc.

[MooseJuice]

I don't think it's all doom and gloom but the whole legendary system just makes life more complicated when you're trying to gauge how well you're doing compared to others because you have to take into account how much of the other guys damage is him just having the right item. It makes sorting through logs more complicated because you have to filter people in the same situation as you. Ultimately it might even make the decision of someone deciding to accept you as a new guild trial or to invite to a raid, harder because they have to account for what legendaries you have. It all just kinda skews things too much. Hopefully people making those judgments can be smart enough to look at the damage done and realize man that guy is doing playing pretty well considering…

[Mybull]

It's not critting becaude you're trying to cast fireball with it. It's already hard to cast Meteor > MI Combust and you're making it harder on you're self. Abother thing is you should be using fireblast to get your Hot streak not phoenix flame.

First of all, it is not hard at all with this rotations. The only time it is hard is when the Meteor has line of sight aiming.

I guess i should rephrase my question in the post. Does Meteor crit rating calculated base at the time it is cast OR when it lands?

Reason i am not using firebalst to get my hotstreak is because i am using FO talent. With 3 charges and at 28% haste,
i can cast a meteor after i have finish up my 3 charges and FP my 4th fireblast is up and another Pyro again.

And depending on my 2pc set from Arc/Cos and Chronoshard procs, i can have another Pyro into the combust.

Let me log tomorrow's raid and we can discuss more if u like

So you're opener is beyond wrong.

1. It is better to have Fireblast on cd than it is to have Pheonix flame. Pheonix flame is 45 cd and get's lowered by ignite by 10 seconds.

2. When you get Hot Streak, you cast Meteor > MI > Combust or Rune > Meteor > Combust. If you are using Meteor inside combust you're doing it wrong. The crit rating is when the spell lands not when you cast it.

3. Kind of a side note and idk your gear. I'm sitting on 15k crit and i feel thats low, yea haste is better on single but its better than mastery and barely and i mean barely better than crit. You shouldn't be at 45% crit to get more haste.

After many test in real combat fights in raids and M+ you are right, With latency and all...

However, after many practice in CiS is way much better in NH and M+