Nighthold Arcane Specs.

[m3nsky]

I am still trying to figure out why people are wasting their time on using Rune Of Power, it feels wrong now. It barely sims higher then IF and mechanically is easier to not use on most to all fights.

Because most fights actually invite you to use it just by the way the mechanics works, where you actually want specific burst during a window as opposed to a constant over the whole fight. I will however say that some mechanics also favor IF because a wasted RoP is a hell of a dps loss.

e.g.
Skorp during Weakness
Chrono when adds spawn and fast time
Trilliax probably IF
Spellblade Aluriel when the adds spawn
Tichondrius after and during Night phase, so 2 RoPs stacked more or less
Krosus you can (on heroic at least) use it safely
Botanist can go either way, but its powerful when all 3 are up and you can grab AE off the parasites too
Augur can go either way, depends if you get picked or not for Ejections
Elisande with fast bubble is nice, stacking all 3 and hurray
Gul'dan man, with the extra action bar during 3 big adds ph1, and during all Eyes

This might change a lot with Mythic mechanics though, but as of now most encounters are prone to use RoP on, additionally ofc the majority has played with RoP since Legion so it's somewhat in muscle memory.
Even if I go IF, I still press the RoP keybind when burns happen :p

[jimmyo]

I am still trying to figure out why people are wasting their time on using Rune Of Power, it feels wrong now. It barely sims higher then IF and mechanically is easier to not use on most to all fights.

The amount and frequency of movement on a fight is unchanged by your talent choice. If you would interrupt a cast to move with RoP, you would interrupt the same cast to move with IF. Since the number of interrupted casts is the same either way, it only takes 12 seconds once every 40 secs for RoP to be better than IF. If you watch timers, you can find 12 seconds to stand still (or spam AE) on every fight in NH. Additionally, RoP's effect is bigger than the graphic. You have space to sidestep while using AM, AE, or PoM.

Throw in the burst reqs of NH mentioned above and the decision is simple.

[Mage]

RoP is better when mechanics don't happen. Unfortunately, they do. Is a delayed RoP in anticipation of mechanics still better? It's not so simple. But top logs will have RoP for sure, because winning a lottery is always fun.

[Sol]

RoP is better when mechanics don't happen. Unfortunately, they do. Is a delayed RoP in anticipation of mechanics still better? It's not so simple. But top logs will have RoP for sure, because winning a lottery is always fun.

It isn't a lottery. DBM exists. Look at timers drop rune when you won't be forced to move off. This isn't a luck thing, this is strictly a learn the fight thing.

[Mage]

It isn't a lottery. DBM exists. Look at timers drop rune when you won't be forced to move off. This isn't a luck thing, this is strictly a learn the fight thing.

Is a delayed RoP in anticipation of mechanics still better? It's not so simple.

[Unity]

It isn't a lottery. DBM exists. Look at timers drop rune when you won't be forced to move off. This isn't a luck thing, this is strictly a learn the fight thing.

Is a delayed RoP in anticipation of mechanics still better? It's not so simple.

I mean it really is that simple though... Delaying RoP in anticipation of mechanics is akin to delaying AP in anticipation of mechanics. Playing around mechanics with the optimal talent setup will always net you higher throughput than playing a suboptimal talent setup in an attempt to cheese said mechanics. Suggesting that it isn't so simple is assinine.

[Mage]

I mean it really is that simple though... Delaying RoP in anticipation of mechanics is akin to delaying AP in anticipation of mechanics.

Yeah. And what about when delaying ROP nets you 1 less ROP over the boss fight? While you always get full benefit of IF? And while you can game the IF so you hardcast ABs during the 1 stack while dumping highest DPET AMs and POM-ABs during 5 stack?

If you have math to back up your claim, go ahead and present it.

[testacular]

While you always get full benefit of IF?

Not as simple. Did you actually cast most of your 4 AC ABs with 3+ IF stacks or not? Did you use your AP at 3+ IF stacks? You did? Well then, haven't you delayed your AP for that reason?

IF isn't as straightforward benefit as it seems to be. While it is free gain of *some* damage, the difference at 1 or 2 stacks is barely tangible compared to RoP when it comes to burn phases.

Furthermore you partially lose your mini-burn ability for high priority targets which is one thing arcane can excel at.

[Mage]

Not as simple.

That's exactly what I said twice now.

Furthermore you partially lose your mini-burn ability for high priority targets which is one thing arcane can excel at.

Yes, but that's utility talk, aka different topic than pure numbers.

[Xenost]

I mean it really is that simple though... Delaying RoP in anticipation of mechanics is akin to delaying AP in anticipation of mechanics.

Yeah. And what about when delaying ROP nets you 1 less ROP over the boss fight? While you always get full benefit of IF? And while you can game the IF so you hardcast ABs during the 1 stack while dumping highest DPET AMs and POM-ABs during 5 stack?

If you have math to back up your claim, go ahead and present it.

RoP has 2 stacks for that very reason so you can delay it without missing 1 total use during the fight, it's really easy to find 2 window of 10 s in 1:30 of fight.

The problems only arises when you want to sync it with other spells/cd but at that point you wouldnt have been able to use other things either.

It doesn't take much for RoP to be better than IF but it takes much for IF to be better than RoP (like monitoring your current stacks so you burst with the best average stacks of IF).

[Unity]

I mean it really is that simple though... Delaying RoP in anticipation of mechanics is akin to delaying AP in anticipation of mechanics.

Yeah. And what about when delaying ROP nets you 1 less ROP over the boss fight? While you always get full benefit of IF? And while you can game the IF so you hardcast ABs during the 1 stack while dumping highest DPET AMs and POM-ABs during 5 stack?

If you have math to back up your claim, go ahead and present it.

If you did any math or real-world testing of your claims you'd realize why literally everyone else in this thread is telling you that you're wrong.

In addition, with your theoretical utilization of IF you're massively raising the skill ceiling on Arcane. The amount of effort we'd have to put into tracking IF to utilize it in the way you want would nuke most individual's DPS considerably, even for the most skilled players in the world.

Oh and PS, if you're ever holding your RoP charges long enough to lose an entire charge throughout the course of a fight you're playing incorrectly.

[TouchyMcfeel]

Hey guys,

I recently did Gul'dan on heroic, however it felt like I was being carried by my guild. My damage was terrible. I look at the logs and figure out that I'm walking more because said mechanics than actually DPS (only active 80%). Which is terrible in general and is something I should fix. However I struggle to see how arcane is suppose to pad 500-600k on this fight.

Is the idea on this fight to pad on Eye of Gul'dan? (RoP->AE with Time Delation (Extra action button) on Eye of Gul'dan)
Also AB or AM feels rather lackluster when phase one and two sort of contain two targets. Of course I understand that we should kill off the adds before boss, which is the main argument to keep going AB/AM. However since the add is tanked next to Gul'dan in my case, and because some thread here says with the back up of math that AE leads over AB in terms of DPM. Should I still spam AE over AB/AM?

What are the thoughts about this?

Logs (Look for Sunflowers): https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/gq ... ry&fight=7

[Kenos]

Is the idea on this fight to pad on Eye of Gul'dan? (RoP->AE with Time Delation (Extra action button) on Eye of Gul'dan)
Also AB or AM feels rather lackluster when phase one and two sort of contain two targets. Of course I understand that we should kill off the adds before boss, which is the main argument to keep going AB/AM. However since the add is tanked next to Gul'dan in my case, and because some thread here says with the back up of math that AE leads over AB in terms of DPM. Should I still spam AE over AB/AM?
[/url]

Bursting the eyes down is a high priority during the gul'dan fight, so you can't really call that padding.

Yes you should use arcane blast whenever eyes are up. The eyes duplicate if they are not killed fast enough (and if they duplicate, the duplicates spawn at the same HP as the ones they spawned from), so it is crucial to kill them ASAP. Be sure to not run too close to the tank though, because you might trigger fel scythe. Keep in mind that AE with the artifact trait has a pretty huge AoE, so you're often able to hit 4-6+ targets during eye phase.

You should probably not however (depending on your tactics), spam AE with gul'dan+add only up. I saw the post you were talking about and iirc it was a pretty close call dps wise, considering you might cause a liquid hellfire to land near melee (they only target ranged/healers afaik), I'd say it's not really worth it, you also can't help with the (empowered) bonds of fel at all if you're stuck in melee range. If you have a designated healer that can put a bubble in the melee camp however, you could try it out and see how it goes. I for one always just went AB/AM on the priority add or gul'dan when nothing else was up.

Also, if you find yourself moving a lot, try to bank some AM charges whenever you know some movement will be incoming soon.

[Mage]

If you did any math or real-world testing of your claims you'd realize why literally everyone else in this thread is telling you that you're wrong.

Everyone in this this thread aka you?
First of all I wrote that it is not always clear cut between RoP and IF on a real mythic boss. It is you who said which one is "clearly better", without presenting anything to back up you claim.

How about this - on a 10 min fight (of which are a few in mythic NH) IF sims 0.21% higher than RoP for me in Patchwerk and 0.34% in Beastlord presets. And that is without gaming IF stacks.

Feel free to provide math and real world tests proving simcraft wrong.

[Egeras]

How about this - on a 10 min fight (of which are a few in mythic NH) IF sims 0.21% higher than RoP for me in Patchwerk and 0.34% in Beastlord presets. And that is without gaming IF stacks.

Feel free to provide math and real world tests proving simcraft wrong.

This is not how the burden of proof work so stop shifting it.

You have proposed a thesis of "IF being superior than RoP due to it being easier to play in the NH fights". You have to provide statistics of a sound sample size or math backing up your claim for any sound conclusions to be made (and no, RoP with the current APL simming higher than IF is not evidence of this, lol), as of yet you haven't so we can entirely disregard your "opinion" as it is literally baseless. Furthermore you seem to approach this from an angle of you being correct and then trying to prove why which is the worst starting point for any kind of sound conclusions so you might want to reconsider your stance.

Hell your entire argument is based on the what-if of playing poorly enough to loose RoP uptime", While also trying to argue for mid fight adaptions to IF timers. You can't compare "RoP played badly" to "IF played by robomage" If you can't see the fallacies with this line of thinking perhaps there's no point trying to even consider your like of thinking as you obviously don't want any factual results or progress to be made.

Now there is a real possibility of IF perhaps being better with certain types of gear, played a certain way, and especially on certain fights. You just have to stop making an ass out of yourself and actually show us why we should take anything you say seriously.

[Cauldron]

I'm using IF instead of RoP, just because I like IF especially on progression.
Math wise honestly RoP is better, but require a good grasp of the fight to be used optimally.
The only way to get a bit more off IF is using it "optimally", and for that you really need to rely
on something like weakuras. Otherwise as others stated, will become so hard that RoP will be easyer to manage.

And by weakaura I mean not something that present you the number of stacks.

For me I use a weakauras that change the color of procs (like missiles) from purple to amber.
That way I know easily when something will hit hard, and when it will not.

That will ease the optimal use of IF, but RoP... RoP will be better

[Mage]

How about this - on a 10 min fight (of which are a few in mythic NH) IF sims 0.21% higher than RoP for me in Patchwerk and 0.34% in Beastlord presets. And that is without gaming IF stacks.

Feel free to provide math and real world tests proving simcraft wrong.

This is not how the burden of proof work so stop shifting it.

You have proposed a thesis of "IF being superior than RoP due to it being easier to play in the NH fights". You have to provide statistics of a sound sample size or math backing up your claim for any sound conclusions to be made (and no, RoP with the current APL simming higher than IF is not evidence of this, lol), as of yet you haven't so we can entirely disregard your "opinion" as it is literally baseless. Furthermore you seem to approach this from an angle of you being correct and then trying to prove why which is the worst starting point for any kind of sound conclusions so you might want to reconsider your stance.

Hell your entire argument is based on the what-if of playing poorly enough to loose RoP uptime", While also trying to argue for mid fight adaptions to IF timers. You can't compare "RoP played badly" to "IF played by robomage" If you can't see the fallacies with this line of thinking perhaps there's no point trying to even consider your like of thinking as you obviously don't want any factual results or progress to be made.

Now there is a real possibility of IF perhaps being better with certain types of gear, played a certain way, and especially on certain fights. You just have to stop making an ass out of yourself and actually show us why we should take anything you say seriously.

Thanks for the dose of bile in the afternoon, got any more?
Feel free to come back with math showing simcraft is wrong. Until then...Yeah. Continue being a nameless troll with 1 post.

[Egeras]

Thanks for the dose of bile in the afternoon, got any more?
Feel free to come back with math showing simcraft is wrong. Until then...Yeah. Continue being a nameless troll with 1 post.

Albeit perhaps I was being a tad blunt it is kinda funny how you went from shifting to burden of proof to a ad hominem. Got any more of those fallacies lying about

[Mage]

Simcraft - IF > ROP on elisande or guldan or whatever else is long.

/thread

[Cauldron]

I hope you are using Simcraft in Patchewek mode cause Beastlords or other movement simulation are currently not working well and are not really reliable.

The only reliable use of Simcraft nowadays is Patchwerk with different numbers of actors to simulate ST, cleave or AOE

Anyway I think both talents have their merit and you can't just stop at simcraft.
Sometimes a talent choice even if mathematically lower could be better because it address a player style issue.
For me I sport better with IF cause usually I tend to fail a bit at planning for fight mechanics. I tend to react more than plan, and so, IF suite much better. I could do better. But for getting payed I do another job, sometimes I want to relax too