Nighthold Arcane Specs.

[Mage]

on a 10 min fight (of which are a few in mythic NH) IF sims 0.21% higher than RoP for me in Patchwerk and 0.34% in Beastlord presets. And that is without gaming IF stacks.

2 posts above.

As for rop being overall higher in certain scenarios - sure. Like AP-ROP arcane adds nuke on aluriel. Etc.

[Egeras]

Simcraft - IF > ROP on elisande or guldan or whatever else is long.

This is an interesting point (though the 10 minute assumptions from earlier seems a tad generous).

There is indeed a breakpoint around the 7-8 minute mark (using the mage 910 gear) where IF sims better than RoP, so there is soundness to the argument that for some fights IF is superior.

So what we then need to consider is the dps increase of about 3k worth it for fights like guldan and ellisande where on demand burst damage for the eyes is required and rather large damage Inceasing buffs and CD reductions are prevalent.

On Ellisande with the high uptime of haste increase and cooldown reduction will If outperform the 30% more uptime of RoP? I seriously doubt this but would have to math out a reasonable uptime of RoP to prove this.

For Gul'dan with the short uptime of Time dilation that you want to line up with the adds in especially p2 I just can't see how IF reasonably can outperform RoP to such a degree that the loss of control is worth it.

As I assume most mages played at a high level use RoP due to it being the status quo the logdata for the heroicfights is substantial at best (and mythic nonexistant ofc) due to the disparity inbetween samplesizes of IF and RoP so RoP being wastly superior there sadly is no sound data.

But at least from this I'd say we can reasonably state that for Skorp Chronomatic Trilliax and Krosus IF is out of the question as the fights are just too short.

For Ellisande and Gul'dan I just can't see 3k dps increase being better than the higher RoP uptime due to the cooldown reduction and lining up the 30% increased casttime with it.

There is merit to the argument for IF on Spellblade, Star auger, Botanist and Tichondrius though as their current speed fall outside of the IF breakpoint. Does RoP vastly cater to any specific mechanics during these fights anyone recon?

[jimmyo]

There is merit to the argument for IF on Spellblade, Star auger, Botanist and Tichondrius though as their current speed fall outside of the IF breakpoint. Does RoP vastly cater to any specific mechanics during these fights anyone recon?

1) Fight length for top tier guilds is not indicative of fight length for the vast majority of first kills. First week kills are lower geared and typically less mechanically sound.

2) Even ignoring that critique, Spellblade, Tichondrius, and Auger have obvious burst needs in the form of adds (Frost/Fire/Arcane eles on Spellblde, Bats & P1 adds on Ticho, Faceless on Auger). Tichondrius orbs also provide a short duration damage buff comparable to the Guldan EAB.

Mythic Botanist is the only one you mention that does not have a clear advatge to RoP. The fight works in reverse compared to Heroic (3 adds -> 2 adds -> 1 add). Where the most optimal burst exists is debateable as there aren't enough logged kills to make that determination. Orb damage is valuable, but so is plant and boss. Movement requirement varies on kill order (though logged kill consensus last night was Nature->Arcane->Fire).

[m3nsky]

Simcraft - IF > ROP on elisande or guldan or whatever else is long.

/thread

So just so I don't get this wrong, you are comparing IF>RoP with a Patchwerkstyle fight Sim (no movement, no nothing, best case scenario) to "Elisande or Guldan or whatever else is long" that are ANYTHING but a patchwerk fight style right?

You are also writing in the style of IF being a take the talent and forget it kinda way which in no way would sim higher than RoP because for you to reach that, you would again need to perfectly time pretty much any ability based on current stacks of IF which is way harder than simply using RoP when the best scenario for it presents itself and ensuring you never actually cap 2 stacks so long that you would have gotten a 3rd stack.

Personally I don't care about simcraft because quite frankly those aren't people, so I'll stick to Logs.
While I certainly agree there might be good cases for using IF, they way you present it "it's flat out better overall" I cannot agree with. Also, if IF was flat out better, why doesn't every Arcane Mage play it? You would have logs littered with IF if it's that much better, but it's quite the opposite and I'm pretty sure the top mages test everything on every fight.
Just an example: this is not math, but it sure is evidence
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/1 ... fficulty=4" target="_blank

Likewise I understand the logic of wanting to use IF on progression as you don't yet know when RoP would be best used "yet". At the same time, once you do, after couple of tries, I assume you switch to RoP because exactly in those cases you want the burst window.

[Unity]

zzz

Redacting cause not enough proof in either direction and don't wanna shame a random person's logs.

[Mage]

Simcraft - IF > ROP on elisande or guldan or whatever else is long.

/thread

So just so I don't get this wrong, you are comparing IF>RoP with a Patchwerkstyle fight Sim (no movement, no nothing, best case scenario) to "Elisande or Guldan or whatever else is long" that are ANYTHING but a patchwerk fight style right?

You are also writing in the style of IF being a take the talent and forget it kinda way which in no way would sim higher than RoP because for you to reach that, you would again need to perfectly time pretty much any ability based on current stacks of IF which is way harder than simply using RoP when the best scenario for it presents itself and ensuring you never actually cap 2 stacks so long that you would have gotten a 3rd stack.

Personally I don't care about simcraft because quite frankly those aren't people, so I'll stick to Logs.
While I certainly agree there might be good cases for using IF, they way you present it "it's flat out better overall" I cannot agree with. Also, if IF was flat out better, why doesn't every Arcane Mage play it? You would have logs littered with IF if it's that much better, but it's quite the opposite and I'm pretty sure the top mages test everything on every fight.
Just an example: this is not math, but it sure is evidence
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/1 ... fficulty=4" target="_blank

Likewise I understand the logic of wanting to use IF on progression as you don't yet know when RoP would be best used "yet". At the same time, once you do, after couple of tries, I assume you switch to RoP because exactly in those cases you want the burst window.

Thanks for a non - raging post.

I am not comparing a sim to a boss, I have said it many times before that they cannot be compared and sims do not reflect real life. However, it is pretty hard to judge talents based on logs from a 2 week long raid in which most people parsing (not all) are just beginning to embrace arcane. Also I have not seen it mentioned anywhere that IF outsims RoP so I took it upon myself to point that out.

I haven't said IF is flat out better, I said RoP is clearly better in several scenarios, with Aluriel arcane adds nuke being one example. Jury is out there what fights IF is better on, Tichondrius with constant blood/bat aoe comes to mind. But I don't have answers to those questions, I am here to present another viewpoint. Hence me saying "it is not so simple" multiple times.

As for gaming IF stacks - it is something that Simcraft does not do. I don't know by how much it would make IF superior in a sim, but it would bump it up from the current 0.2-0.3 percent that IF sims higer on 10 a min fight. To be honest, I don't have much problem doing it this way - have a big WA number on my scren showing me stacks, if they are 2_>1 or 1, I try to hardcast AB instead of dumping AM or PoM/AB. Pretty sure the gain is very small but it is there, in the real world.

Listen man, I don't want to bring this to a personal level but I'm going to have to because that's just how hard-headed you are. Mage on Stormrage US in the guild No Big Deal is your character, correct?

No, I am not from US. And this is precisely the reason why I don't like to make stuff public, because it makes discussions more diffucult when people start to go ad hominem.

Your logs are nice, but there is no point drawing conclusions from 2 people's logs because skill and mechanics come into play. You have higher parses than me on 3 of the 10 bosses, on one I died, on 1 you were killing voidlings (Augur) and on one I guess you just outplayed me.

I can share them in a private message so you can analyze stuff if you wish, but I would appreciate it if you didn't bring it on a personal level here on the forums. Let's discuss statistics, not individual performances.

[Rindir]

I know this is going to be unpopular, but I run mirror images in Nighthold for all fights. I just use it on CD and let them do their thing. In general in nighthold, standing still (or w/in range of RoP) is difficult if not impossible for many phases of the bosses. Personally, I saw a DPS increase but I'll be the first to admit that I'm not the best at the game and after I get used to the raid I might switch back. However, I found that I sim only 5k higher DPS running RoP which is not worth the extra hassle in my opinion.
http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/simulator ... 9a9778de92" target="_blank

[Jhazz]

The point I would hasten to make is that as Arcane Mages we should be playing to our strengths. As things currently stand, we are most certainly not the jack of all trades. During constant AoE fights (Skorpyron cheese tactic, as an example), fire mages and affliction warlocks will leave us in the dust. On Single Target fights (Krosus/Augur) we'll be competitive, but not exceptional.

The area in which Arcane Mages are currently excelling is burst AoE. Animated phases on Spellblade, bat phases on Tichondrius, Eye of Gul'dan phases. As I opened, for me it makes sense to play to these strengths, and it is for that reason that I chose RoP over IF. I'd much rather heighten my ability during my strong opener and strong burst AoE, than a flat increase throughout.

Example: Gul'dan (note, I haven't killed him yet). P1 is fine, good opportunity for ST damage to start with, and then 3-target cleave. I could talent IF because there's a fair bit of movement, but I don't excel in P1 so I don't see the point in buffing myself a tad. Nonetheless, it leaves me in a solid position on the charts heading into P2. During P2, I know there's an opportunity to shine every 40 seconds or so. Coincidentally, also the CD of RoP. I know that as an Arcane Mage this phase of burst AoE is not only my biggest strength, but is also something that my guild needs to do as a priority. I take the decision to talent RoP because bursting down these eyes makes the encounter easier for my guild, while also (usually) moving me to the top of the charts.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/2Y ... target=118" target="_blank - the damage done on the Eyes for the 20 wipes we've had as a guild.

If I didn't take RoP, sure, I'd still do a fair amount of damage on the Eyes, but then I'm playing the lottery of "what will my IF look like" by the time those burst phases come around.

In short, I'd much rather play to my strengths and heighten my ability in areas in which I excel, than taking IF to give myself a flat bonus to all areas.

[Mage]

I agree with you that it is always better to play what's better for the encounter you are progressing on, not what is better in simcraft. But your Gul'dan eyes example falls in the "not so simple" category, because you can easily have the eyes move to spots where you have to lose RoP buff to hit the max number you can hit. Not to mention yolu have to cast RoP 1st which in itself if a loss of something like 30% DPS time on them from my experience.

Anyway, I simmed myself again and found out that for my gear the breakpoint where IF starts overtaking RoP on single target is 450seconds fight duration.

Code: Select all

# gear_stamina=33256 # gear_intellect=35803 # gear_crit_rating=7346 # gear_haste_rating=7392 # gear_mastery_rating=4011 # gear_versatility_rating=4912 # gear_leech_rating=473 # gear_speed_rating=398 # gear_avoidance_rating=511 # gear_armor=1949 # set_bonus=tier19_2pc=1

[arshadows89]

Not to mention yolu have to cast RoP 1st which in itself if a loss of something like 30% DPS time on them from my experience.

Cast rop right before eyes spawn??? You can go based off timer or based on when you see him casting eyes.

But your Gul'dan eyes example falls in the "not so simple" category, because you can easily have the eyes move to spots where you have to lose RoP buff to hit the max number you can hit.

Usually i cast rop right under the boss and can cleave all except maybe one. That one is usually just because of boss positioning and not wanting to get cleaved.

How about this - on a 10 min fight (of which are a few in mythic NH) IF sims 0.21% higher than RoP for me in Patchwerk and 0.34% in Beastlord presets. And that is without gaming IF stacks.

I have heard a lot of people say that the beastlord preset isnt working well anymore? And if you want to get aoe information you just have to sim multiple bosses instead.

As far as single target goes IF maybe out sims rop after certain time lengths. But as fights get longer so does the amount of human error. You definitely need to watch out for IF and burn during the higher IF charge when possible and I am guessing time arcane power at a certain charge of IF to get the most out of it. This all adds complexity to the rotation for a very small margin of dps gain. Also a huge strength to arcane is there on demand burst which is from being able to time rop with arcane explosion. In reality you aren't always going to get the best IF charge when you need to aoe. maybe if can work fine when only 1 extra add spawns but rop definitely out scales IF depending on mob count.

[Mage]

Cast rop right before eyes spawn???

And pray they are all in range? No tnx.

I have heard a lot of people say that the beastlord preset isnt working well anymore?

You "heard"?

As far as single target goes IF maybe out sims rop after certain time lengths. But as fights get longer so does the amount of human error. You definitely need to watch out for IF and burn during the higher IF charge when possible

No, simcraft doesn't do it. IF outsims RoP on longer fights without watching anything.

[arshadows89]

And pray they are all in range? No tnx.

If you scrolled down a bit you can at least argue this point.

Usually I cast rop right under the boss and can cleave all except maybe one. That one is usually just because of boss positioning and not wanting to get cleaved.

And maybe you would still argue the whole pray they are within range still, but from my experience they usually spawn fairly close to guldan, this is sort of backed up in wowheads guide where they state, "These eyes will hover near Gul'dan and channel shadow energy". Hover being the key word here meaning fairly close by.

Maybe I been fairly lucky with my experience with him so far, and have had really good eye spawns.

You "heard"?

Really not sure what your trying to say here? Are you confused by the word heard? Are you looking for sources? Or are you just being rude?

Like I said I heard/read that people don't use hectic add cleave sims anymore, maybe its because its out of date and the developers aren't really keeping it up to date with it, or maybe its the fact that most class api's don't really handle cooldown management well based on hectic add cleave and thus you will always get a better result just simming multiple raid bosses. This I am guessing backed up by the fact that all these sims you see based on aoe stat and trinket priority is based not by using the hectic add cleave but 3-4 raid bosses instead.

No, simcraft doesn't do it. IF outsims RoP on longer fights without watching anything.

I cant really understand why IF just starts to out sim rop based on fight length? Maybe I am missing something here but fight length shouldn't really affect things like rop and IF too much.

Maybe its the arcane api not handling rop's correctly as the fight goes on??? Not sure would need to sim myself.

[Mage]

Like I said I heard/read that people don't use hectic add cleave sims anymore, maybe its because its out of date and the developers aren't really keeping it up to date with it, or maybe its the fact that most class api's don't really handle cooldown management well based on hectic add cleave and thus you will always get a better result just simming multiple raid bosses. This I am guessing backed up by the fact that all these sims you see based on aoe stat and trinket priority is based not by using the hectic add cleave but 3-4 raid bosses instead.

OK.
Have you simmed it then? I have. IF starts outperforming RoP on 3 patchwerks SOONER than on single target, which is expected. 350 seconds instead of 450 seconds.

I cant really understand why IF just starts to out sim rop based on fight length? Maybe I am missing something here but fight length shouldn't really affect things like rop and IF too much.
Maybe its the arcane api not handling rop's correctly as the fight goes on??? Not sure would need to sim myself.

It's very simple - RoP has higher initial burst, the longer fight goes, the less importance it has for overall result.
For Shard users, on fights where BL is not used on pull, IF would most likely pull ahaead even faster than my sims show.