simc is overrating my haste

[kaNEt]

Hi all,

I've been using simc (nightly) for a while now and since the 7.1.5 came out and blizz decided to rework the fire belt im having some issues with stats weights.

What i did notice is that if i simulate myself with the belt since it gives u the 100% crit at 30% and i also have 2pc of tier for the other 70% simc is just overrating my haste so i can cast more scorch at execute phase and underrating my crit to something stupid puting it at last spot on my weights with the mastery.

I simulated some fire mates with kinda same gear and no belt and while for me its int>haste>vers while i am at 39% crit they still having int>=crit when they have 62% crit.

I'm pretty sure this might be an error/bug bcz for a couple weeks i tryed to follow the haste advice from simc and that just made me a huge dps loss.

If some1 wants to simulate me: "brunette - dun modr (eu)"

[Vyshaan]

I don't know whats correct this days...so best thing imo is to find some mage with good logs and compare their gear/spec and try it yourself

[Trig]

I'm getting the same thing, have the belt as well but no bracers. If you have both I believe it's not so skewed.

AMR shows similar - the ML tool wants me with no crit and all haste/vers gear. AMR will recommend crit gear so long as I wear that set of gear (57%) when feeding into the simulation so it will take that into account. I've noticed AMR likes the extremes - you either have crit or you don't. I was looking at the ML tool from 870 to 920 for reference.

So yeah, I don't know what to do either - don't think anyone has really looked at it since crit/mast has been the status quo for so long. Going to grab haste/vers pieces where I can and keep looking at it.

[player803]

Stat weights are fluid for mages since 7.1.5. Simming the characters is the best tool we have to get a feel about what stats work best. It should be noted that our legendaries and our talents change the priority of the stats a lot.

I have trusted the stat weights that SimulationsCraft has been given. For ST I run the helm (AF), the belt, Mirror Image, Meteor and 4pc. With this setup I the weights I get are: Intellect=13.64, CritRating=11.27, HasteRating=11.79, MasteryRating=10.70, Versatility=12.09. I chose to enchant and gem Versatility.
Each of the things I mentioned at the start influences the stats I get and they make sense to me. If I go ROP for ST then the stats I get are: Intellect=13.06, CritRating=11.31, HasteRating=10.67, MasteryRating=12.38, Versatility=11.76
Quite different in terms of priority.

The most important thing to me is that the stats are relatively close to each other. They don't matter as much as they did in 7.1.0 so we are free to do whatever without gaining or losing too much, ilvl is a good indicator of our gear in the current iteration.

P.S. These sims we done using nightly at ed53d25. In terms of ratings I have 2 parts haste : 2 parts crit : 1 part mastery : 1 part vers.

[kaNEt]

Stat weights are fluid for mages since 7.1.5. Simming the characters is the best tool we have to get a feel about what stats work best. It should be noted that our legendaries and our talents change the priority of the stats a lot.

I have trusted the stat weights that SimulationsCraft has been given. For ST I run the helm (AF), the belt, Mirror Image, Meteor and 4pc. With this setup I the weights I get are: Intellect=13.64, CritRating=11.27, HasteRating=11.79, MasteryRating=10.70, Versatility=12.09. I chose to enchant and gem Versatility.
Each of the things I mentioned at the start influences the stats I get and they make sense to me. If I go ROP for ST then the stats I get are: Intellect=13.06, CritRating=11.31, HasteRating=10.67, MasteryRating=12.38, Versatility=11.76
Quite different in terms of priority.

The most important thing to me is that the stats are relatively close to each other. They don't matter as much as they did in 7.1.0 so we are free to do whatever without gaining or losing too much, ilvl is a good indicator of our gear in the current iteration.

P.S. These sims we done using nightly at ed53d25. In terms of ratings I have 2 parts haste : 2 parts crit : 1 part mastery : 1 part vers.

do u realize that if u go full haste everytime simc makes it valuate more and more? i have boths gears, crit one and haste one, simc tells me i should be doing 1242355 millions dps with the haste one just cz of the belt bug (im pretty sure it is) but then when u go realfight and u lose ur pyretic on execute cz u have no crit and u lose a 10% dmg bcz if u have crit u can almost do all the execute phase without losing the pyretic and the numbers are quite quite quite diferents about what simc says.

[player803]

do u realize that if u go full haste everytime simc makes it valuate more and more? i have boths gears, crit one and haste one, simc tells me i should be doing 1242355 millions dps with the haste one just cz of the belt bug (im pretty sure it is) but then when u go realfight and u lose ur pyretic on execute cz u have no crit and u lose a 10% dmg bcz if u have crit u can almost do all the execute phase without losing the pyretic and the numbers are quite quite quite diferents about what simc says.

I have the belt and I spent a good amount of time trying various gear configurations. I have not observed the behavior you are describing. On 4 targets i found it to be a bit more inconsistent in computing the haste plot but overall it seems good. There are a few haste breakpoints that make some values more interesting. You should plot the haste, I don't really trust the haste value when the graph shows a dip at my current rating.
For single target the damage that I get in game is closely comparable with the damage simc generates in my case.

[Syana]

From what I can tell it isn't the overvaluing of haste that is the issue with the belt, but the undervaluing of crit as a result of having the belt. This combined with Mirror Images favoring haste over crit only puts more emphasis on this. Then on top of this, the moment you add movement to the equation haste will be valued even less.

Essentially crit is our best stat, with the exception of int, no matter what the sims say and what ever else is on the piece of gear is essentially irrelevant.

[kaNEt]

From what I can tell it isn't the overvaluing of haste that is the issue with the belt, but the undervaluing of crit as a result of having the belt. This combined with Mirror Images favoring haste over crit only puts more emphasis on this. Then on top of this, the moment you add movement to the equation haste will be valued even less.

Essentially crit is our best stat, with the exception of int, no matter what the sims say and what ever else is on the piece of gear is essentially irrelevant.

you're pretty right but simc should be more acurate since i almost lose like +1/4 of my dps just to try/follow what it says

[Frosted]

Perhaps you are undervaluing haste. The sim is there to figure something out, not to reinforce what you want to believe is correct.

[Frosted]

Essentially crit is our best stat, with the exception of int, no matter what the sims say and what ever else is on the piece of gear is essentially irrelevant.

This is very clearly wrong. If crit were the best stat, it would be weighted as such by the sim. You wanting or believing crit to be the best stat in all situations has no impact on the reality of how useful crit is with NH gear.

Also there is no "belt bug". Nothing has changed with how the belt has been implemented in the sim for quite some time. All of the core fire mechanics have been the same since Legion launch, with only minor things changing like numbers associated to certain mechanics. Again - you are assuming crit is the best "because fire", which is completely ignoring the environment that Fire exists in at the moment (mainly, gear - Tier, Legendary items, and trinkets). WitD is effectively a giant multiplier of Haste with how it's proc work. It is directly scaling haste value by quite a large amount as a result. It should not be surprising that someone with an item that basically is taking hastes value and directly scaling it has a high haste scale factor. Additionally, 7.1.5 brought nerfs to crit rating through PI damage bonus nerf and the bonus to flat crit rating, on top of the 2pc which further lowers crit scaling. There are plenty of real, reasonably reasons why crit rating has fallen in 7.1.5.

[Zulandia]

Cleaned up some of the purely ad-hominem stuff in here, let's either keep it civil or to ourselves guys.

[gallamann]

Some of my thoughts...

Is SimC actually using Fire Blasts sub 30% with belt, I am constantly using those to skip scorch and get a HS, typically because my HS Pryo didn't crit. Only time I don't is if Combust will come off cooldown in next 10 seconds. One would think both of those devalue haste.

What are all these fire mages going to do come 7.2 and T20 who are sitting around 40% crit, keep using 2pc T19? At 40% worse case with 2pc T19 is 3 fire ball casts. No 2pc you are staring at potentially 7 casts to get a HU, meaning you are going to burn a Fire Blast just to force a HU proc to break that chain at 4ish casts.

To me seems there would be a break point for T19 on crit at 70.01%, then worse case every other Fireball is a crit, more HU's, more HS's, more crit instant Pyro's.

[subtlexgaming]

with set pieces w/o crit and devalued secondary stats is 70% even possible? I hit 72% early on with decimator gear tho

[Spookytooth]

Yeah I don't really understand all this bickering about secondaries. The game is very much on a you get what your given basis since 7.1.5. I mean you get a titanforged mastery haste piece u still put it on over the base ilvl crit haste piece. It's not like you actually get to choose. With 4 piece and legendaries I haven't had to make a single same ilvl choice. I'm sure some people have but it's 1-2 pieces max and it won't last long if your actually playing.

[Quorgyle]

@ Frosted

What do you think about the heroism/Guldan trinket/4pc set proc at same time?