Arcane Missile weaving

[Ricktifier]

So, I recently switched to arcane and have been looking on the forums for tips and tricks...and i came across missile weaving, i had a few questions because there doesnt seem to be a post here (if i am mistaken i would love a link) i was just wondering if your 4th ArB causes a second ArM proc should you be using both ArM procs then blast then weave or should you weave from the start...chart inc

Option 1: Bomb>ArB>ArB(ArM proc 1)>ArB>ArB(ArM proc2)>ArMx2>ArB>ArM>ArB (etc.)
Option 2: Bomb>ArB>ArB(ArM proc 1)>ArB>ArB(ArM proc2)>ArM>ArB>ArM>ArB (etc.)

On an unrelated note, I'm trying to analyze my own logs and im just not exactly sure what kind of things i should be looking at (i know RoP uptime/casts per fight, dot uptime/casts per fight and ArM casts vs. procs) but are there any other things i can be looking at to further increase my damage?

[Liquidsteel]

As I understand it, you just continue to weave blast into missiles until you run out. As long as you aren't munching charges you should be fine to sit at one stack.

The one thing I'm not sure of is this changes when you have 4 piece. I'm still relatively new to Arcane and Mage in general, and have been playing 2pc and 3x HCWF pieces for a while. Trying out 4pc this week.

My gut instinct tells me that you should just continue to weave, but hopefully someone more experienced can shed light on our questions.

[Shangalar]

Let's try to take a look at this issue with napkin math (the only math I'm capable of).

Let's ignore the base damage and use only SP coefficients and let's assume a useful amount of spell power for purposes of math - 128. That would make Arcane Blast at 0 Charges deal 100 damage and at 4 Charges deal 300 damage. In that scenario, Missiles deal 140 damage at 0 Charges and 420 at 4 Charges. Let's also assume a 100% Mastery bonus at full mana because I'm lazy and round numbers are easier to deal with.

Let's now also assume that we have full mana, 4 Charges and 2 Missiles.

Missiles 1 deal 840 damage and reduce the cost of the next Blast by 25%. A 4-Charge Blast costs 11.9% mana, which reduced by 1 stack of Profound Magic is 8.92%. It deals 600 damage and gets our mana to 91.1%.

The next cast of Missiles has only a 91.1% damage bonus, meaning that they deal 802 damage, but during that channel we also get some mana back putting us at 95.7% mana and we also get some mana back while casting the next Blast, putting us at 100%. The next Blast will deal 600 damage again. It also drops us to 91.1% mana. We finish it all off with a Barrage which deals 128x3x1.911 = 733 damage and gets us up to 94.55% mana to start the next cycle.

With Missile weaving and with the 2-set bonus we cast 2 Missiles, 2 Blasts and 1 Barrage for a total of 3575 damage.
____

Now let's see what happens with 2 AM, 2 Blasts and 1 Barrage.

Casting 2 Missiles nets us 1680 damage and reduces the cost of Blast by 50%. The next Blast deals 600 damage, costs 5.95% mana and gets us to 94.05% mana. The next Blast after that regens 4.6 while casting, getting us to 98.65%, deals 596 damage and drops us to 86.75% mana which means that Barrage will deal 128x3x1.8675 = 717 damage and it will regen 2.45% mana, getting us to 89.2% mana to start the next cycle.

In this scenario we dealt 3593 damage which is more than in the first example, but ended the rotation on a bit less mana. Is this a problem?

____

If casting 4 Blasts in a row for the next rotational cycle (without recasting Rune or moving or refreshing a bomb), we would regain 18.4% mana while spending 22.1%. But we have to look at each cast specifically because of possible mana capping:

Scenario 1: starting the cycle at 94.55% mana:

Blast 1: +4.6 during cast, -1.7 after cast = 99.15 -1.7 = 97.45. (199.15 damage)
Blast 2: +4.6 during cast, -4.25 after cast = 100 - 4.25 = 95.75. (300 damage)
Blast 3: +4.6 during cast, -6.8 after cast = 100 -6.8 = 93.2 (400 damage)
Blast 4: +4.6 during cast, -9.35 after cast = 97.8 -9.35 = 88.45 (494 damage)

Total damage: 1393 damage

Scenario 2: starting the cycle at 89.2% mana:

Blast 1: +4.6 during cast, -1.7 after cast = 93.6 -1.7 = 91.9 (193 damage)
Blast 2: +4.6 during cast, -4.25 after cast = 98.4 - 4.25 = 94.15 (298 damage)
Blast 3: +4.6 during cast, -6.8 after cast = 98.75 -6.8 = 91.95 (397 damage)
Blast 4: +4.6 during cast, -9.35 after cast = 96.55 - 9.35 = 87.2 (491 damage)

Total damage: 1379

The damage difference in the original two Missiles scenarios is 18. The damage difference between the next Blast cycle is 14, but you'll also be at a little bit less mana for the next set of Missiles. Basically - it ends up practically the same.

What I would suggest is doing the higher damage 2AM 2AB ABarr when you have procs up to increase the damage. I would also suggest doing AM AB AM AB ABarr in cases when you have procs up, but you were at a bit lower mana. When you don't have procs up and you want to conserve mana you would do 2AM 1AB ABarr, avoiding the second very expensive Blast and starting the rotational cycle once again.

The only thing that you should never do is AM AB AM ABarr, because that's rather inefficient considering the first Blast costs only 1.7% mana and reducing it by a quarter is pointless.

[Ricktifier]

thank you for the speedy reply I'm on the cusp of getting into/not getting into a guild and they want me to try other specs (arc was my most familiar) so this math really helps to pull everything out of my spec.

[Berlinia]

Napkin math OP yo!

[Shangalar]

Napkin math OP yo!

Is it at least correct?

[Liquidsteel]

Does this change at all if you continue to get AM stacks?

In both scenarios you dumped with ABarr, but does resetting your charges not lead to a DPS loss if you could have otherwise camped at 4 stacks for longer?

Say you have a 10 second KTT proc just as you hit 4 charges with 2 stacks of AM. If you do AMx2 then ABx2 you're at a lower percentage of mana than scenario one, and will still have time left on your KTT proc, resulting in less damage from subsequent AM procs (assuming you get them from the two AB's). Would it not be better to just continue to weave AB-AM until you're done?

Apologies if I'm missing something obvious here, it's late and this is still unexplored territory for me.

[Komma]

Does this change at all if you continue to get AM stacks?

I think it does. There are also active talents that increase the number of potential Arcane Missiles you can get, and are mana positive. In MOP we're mostly referring to mage bombs - or replacing RoP, which costs 0 mana. In 6.0 we're also talking about Supernova. 4T16 also means more missiles, which overall leads to a higher mana level on average.

[Shangalar]

My examples above were of course just to show how the damage and mana play out in those situations. If you get more procs from the Arcane Blasts or if your 4-set bonus conserves some procs or if you refresh a bomb and get another proc, it's always best to use the Missiles and then after that even more Blasts are possible depending on how your mana moved during that period. Whenever you use Missiles at 4-Charges, a Blast after them is recommended. Your mana will regen nicely during the 2 AM - 1 AB cycles.

[Trustbucket]

It really isn't as simple as one case is better than the other. There are situations when each of the two is better depending on your procs and mana.

For example, if you have a good amount of time on a trinket and you have a charge of mana gem it would be better to try to camp 4 stack with alternating as long as you keep getting missile procs and if you get low on mana you can use the gem during the trinket proc for a good increase.

Another case would be if you have a trinket proc, lets say KTT procced, and by the time you get to 4 stacks it has 5 seconds left on the proc and you have 2 missiles charges at max stacks. It would be better in this situation to get 2 missiles off and a ArB followed by an ABarr before the proc expires.

It really is complicated and you cannot force a yes or no to something like this, it is all judgement and there isn't always a calculated answer for what is best in each case but they are really close, in theory.

[Ricktifier]

That does seem to be the gist of what I'm seeing, I guess that was always an option in my mind but obviously wasnt voiced here seems to be its all always situational....i really enjoy that kind of depth

[Trustbucket]

seems to be its all always situational....i really enjoy that kind of depth

I really wouldn't be sarcastic when you yourself do not have the answers for your own question. Theres no definitive or mathematical way to judge whether it's more beneficial to do one over the other when you incorporate so many different factors and situations.

Do you honestly think it would be possible to go through the infinite possible situations you could be placed in so you can get a minuscule increase on your dps for a couple weeks before the next patch during farm? You're not in the cutting edge or doing close to optimal dps so I don't see why it matters, anyway.

If you aren't being sarcastic I apologize but I can't read what you said without thinking you were.

[Ricktifier]

I really wouldn't be sarcastic when you yourself do not have the answers for your own question. Theres no definitive or mathematical way to judge whether it's more beneficial to do one over the other when you incorporate so many different factors and situations.


If you aren't being sarcastic I apologize but I can't read what you said without thinking you were.

there was no sarcasm there, it was more of a..."this should have been obvious to me because everything else is situational...why wouldnt it be in this case" and i really do enjoy the depth of making quick on the fly decisions to maximize dps its what they are aiming for heals in WoD

for the record im INCREDIBLY appreciative of all the work that is done here it is fantastic for people like me who wouldnt know how to put together all the numbers, im sorry if i came across as rude, with tone not being conveyed across text i can understand how it looks but i very much appreciate all the work done here

[Trustbucket]

I really wouldn't be sarcastic when you yourself do not have the answers for your own question. Theres no definitive or mathematical way to judge whether it's more beneficial to do one over the other when you incorporate so many different factors and situations.


If you aren't being sarcastic I apologize but I can't read what you said without thinking you were.

there was no sarcasm there, it was more of a..."this should have been obvious to me because everything else is situational...why wouldnt it be in this case" and i really do enjoy the depth of making quick on the fly decisions to maximize dps its what they are aiming for heals in WoD

for the record im INCREDIBLY appreciative of all the work that is done here it is fantastic for people like me who wouldnt know how to put together all the numbers, im sorry if i came across as rude, with tone not being conveyed across text i can understand how it looks but i very much appreciate all the work done here

My bad yeah I perceived it incorrectly, hope you got a good answer for what you were looking for.

[Vatti]

I've always based it on if I was above/below 93% mana. If I was, I would cast a blast using a stack of the two piece to try for another missile. If I wasn't I would cast the missile. If at the end of the cast I was above 93% I would cast the blast. If not, I just clear and use the stack gained from the missile to rebuild my charges and mana with a super cheap first blast.

Not sure how correct that is in terms of math but it's what myself and a few other high parsing arcane mages do.

[Ricktifier]

I really wouldn't be sarcastic when you yourself do not have the answers for your own question. Theres no definitive or mathematical way to judge whether it's more beneficial to do one over the other when you incorporate so many different factors and situations.


If you aren't being sarcastic I apologize but I can't read what you said without thinking you were.

there was no sarcasm there, it was more of a..."this should have been obvious to me because everything else is situational...why wouldnt it be in this case" and i really do enjoy the depth of making quick on the fly decisions to maximize dps its what they are aiming for heals in WoD

for the record im INCREDIBLY appreciative of all the work that is done here it is fantastic for people like me who wouldnt know how to put together all the numbers, im sorry if i came across as rude, with tone not being conveyed across text i can understand how it looks but i very much appreciate all the work done here

My bad yeah I perceived it incorrectly, hope you got a good answer for what you were looking for.

Yeah it seems that its a lot about personal reaction time/latency but i got what i should be considering so that helps a lot

[Berlinia]

The Napmath is correct although personally I would expand on the fact that you can get more damage out if you cast AM once and then weave with 1 missile. Also i could have missed it but do you keep in mind the mana gained during the GCD of ABar?

[Shangalar]

Yep, Barrage is cool, spends 0.5% and regens a bit under 3.