[TC] Chasing BIS: 2T16H+3HWF or 4T16H?

[Komma]

I haven't been watching top logs, so I had no idea that 900K+ was even possible on Dark Shamans. Even crazier when you consider how there aren't any special AOE tricks being used.

Grats on the rank 2.

[Wilderness]

Late update.

I stayed alive on dark shamans and improved my Jugg and Malk logs. Feel free to take a look:

http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/NbBnL2d8rxfvQYm1#" target="_blank

Still love the build. Running Head/Legs/Gloves atm.

Sorry this isn't related to the thread topic but it looks like Mojah is running a scorch build and doing very well with it. Interesting.

[Trustbucket]

Sorry this isn't related to the thread topic but it looks like Mojah is running a scorch build and doing very well with it. Interesting.

I'm sure someone will disagree with me when I say conditions like kill time, RNG, gear, and strategy has a much higher impact than the theoretical differences between the different builds. The two different builds are simmed and sims can not be fully optimal for fire, especially with a "scorch build" since there are many situation where it would be better to use one filler over the other and not just "fireball during meta/ lust and scorch any other time". Especially with high mastery and quick kill times, there is much less reliance on which filler you use mainly.

Mojah has been running a "scorch build" for a while now afaik because I would look though a lot of logs when I mainly played fire. Definitely used scorch more than most mages but I don't know in what situations he uses it and how intelligently he chooses as I have never seen him play.

[Trustbucket]

Also, has anyone tried simming this haste build with blacksmithing instead of tailoring? I would think it would be better, especially in this build to have the extra 640 mastery and 180 static int on cloak since haste and mastery work much more synergistically in this build compared to the full mastery build.

[Komma]

Re: Scorch build. It's been discussed to the death. My personal take is that it's viable, but not optimal, even at ~596 gear levels. At our gear level you just lose some more ground. Many mages disagree with me on this topic. I also don't think it's "impossible" to optimize a sim for it - in fact, it's rather simple when you consider how complicated the fire APL already is. An example of how things can be simplified is using "scorch,if=execute_time>=gcd" as the base filler. This avoids any sort of proc or buff or haste checking.

Re: Blacksmithing instead of tailoring. Have not done this, but tailoring's lead over the other professions is considerable. The 2T16H build still has more mastery than the 4T16H build, despite having more haste. Mastery's strength should not suddenly balloon from that.

[Trustbucket]

Re: Scorch build. It's been discussed to the death. My personal take is that it's viable, but not optimal, even at ~596 gear levels. At our gear level you just lose some more ground. Many mages disagree with me on this topic. I also don't think it's "impossible" to optimize a sim for it - in fact, it's rather simple when you consider how complicated the fire APL already is. An example of how things can be simplified is using "scorch,if=execute_time>=gcd" as the base filler. This avoids any sort of proc or buff or haste checking.

Re: Blacksmithing instead of tailoring. Have not done this, but tailoring's lead over the other professions is considerable. The 2T16H build still has more mastery than the 4T16H build, despite having more haste. Mastery's strength should not suddenly balloon from that.

To the fire's apl comment, I didn't mean choosing one over the other based on cast time to make sure you dont scorch when the cast time will be less than the GCD but rather picking one filler over the other based on trinket procs, cooldown timers to make sure the cooldown is used right as it is available, and 2pc buff. Takes some thinking ahead to how long the filler is and how long the pyro procs will take in relation to the cooldown becoming available.

For example, you are running a low haste build (~8k haste) if PoM/ combust is about to expire in 5 seconds and you have a trinket proc for 6.5 more seconds, it would be worth it to change your filler to scorch to get in the scorch and 4 pyros (could get 5 but its rare and even if you do you have 4 with procs and not 3) in before the proc expires and right after combustion comes off CD. It would also be better to start to pyro chain before combust comes off CD, which afaik sims don't do.

Another case: lets say same haste build (~8k haste), 2pc buff at 5 stacks is going to expire in ~3.5 seconds and you only have a pyro! proc. If you use two fireballs, you will lose 5 stack, and if you use one fireball and pyro, you will be less efficient with 2pc and will have less change the next pyro to keep the 2pc up (don't think I have to explain that). If you use a scorch then a fireball (1.26s + 1.90s) followed by pyro, you will not lose your 2pc and you will still be using fireball with pyro to utilize that grace period for pyro! procs.

There are infinite cases, like these, where it is an obvious benefit to use different fillers in different situations. This is why I say it is impossible to make an optimal APL, I don't use the word impossible by definition just a figure of speech.

[Trustbucket]

All of this discussion shouldn't be in a post about arcane optimizations so I wouldn't be opposed to moving these posts over to the fire section.

Edit: Also about "scorch,if=execute_time>=gcd" coding, wouldn't it be simpler to just put "scorch,if=execute_time>=1" since scorch cast time mirrors the GCD and the cast is only less than the GCD once the GCD gets capped at 1s? Just seems unnecessary, but I don't know how this language works and if gcd is calculated when it is referenced. Might just be personal preference.

[Vatti]

yeah komma i didn't want to risk a death running in to aoe and besides we were going for kill time over ranks so it wouldn't have been worth me doing that in the first place.

on the scorch stuff you'd have to ask mojah personally altho he's less inclined to theory than I am heh.

[Emmerde]

Is 4xT16 still better than WF parts in 6.0.2?

http://eu.battle.net/wow/ru/character/% ... 5/advanced" target="_blank

Not sure whether I should wear 569 T16 shoulders & 582 T16 helm or switch to 588 non-set helm & shoulders. Mana management became less significant, fights became shorter. May additional stats be better than 4xT16 bonus in this case?

[Chev]

AMR keeps suggesting that I drop my 4 set, but even with my Heroic level tier pants, I sim higher than the gear list AMR recommends from my bags. It could be because the 2set was only recommended if you have the MWF versions to Protectors shoulders, Iron Jug pants and Garrosh head. The addition of some ex-healer items may expand that list a bit more. E.g. the head from Shammans.

[voltaa]

At this point the way I am playing it is on heavy AOE fights use 2 set. Immerseus (debatable), TFP, Gal, Spoils. Since multidotting is no longer the 2p/4p decider, AE/CoC damage becomes the factor.