Frost Talents, Stat Weights, Racials, Trinkets, FAQ

[gormac]

Fairs.

I'm just thinking that there must be a magic number of targets where casting FO on cooldown is better than saving it for PC. Perhaps I am missing a vitally important point here, that is very possible.

Okay, I'm not good with coding or maths at all, so bear with me here. I just want to convey an idea, hopefully my sleepy self can make sense of it.

From what I understand, on single target, a lot of value can be added to both Frozen Orb and Prismatic Crystal by delaying Frozen Orb to sync up with PC. This is because FO will do twice as much damage, and - not counting the one free FoF proc - also give twice as many FoF procs. On the other side, you get a lot more value out of PC as you will be able to fire more FoF-ILs into it. Okay, simple enough.

Now, if we increase the amount of targets outside of PC from one to two, it seems to me that the increase both FO and PC gain by lining them up with eachother is dimished by a bit. As you showed above, it's still worth it, but there should in theory be less of a difference on 2 target cleave than single target.

Here's the question for me, at what number of targets does the optimal FO/PC usage change from being based around PC (syncing FO up with PC by delaying FO) to being based around FO (syncing PC up with FO, by delaying PC)?

Perhaps it's a silly question, but I am quite curious about this, as I don't entirely know the optimal way to use these cooldowns when there are intermittent add phases such as on Imperator, and long-lasting multi target cleave such as on Tectus.

Best scenario:
00:00 MI+IV+FO+PC (+2min trinket)
01:00 FO
02:00 FO+PC
03:00 MI
03:30 IV+FO+PC (+2min trinket)
04:30 FO
05:00 MI
05:30 FO+PC
06:30 FO
07:00 MI
07:30 IV+FO+PC (+2min trinket)


Of course it depends, I wait until have some FoF&BF before use FO+PC - 2FoF+BF is great, but dont wait on it!
If you know that BL is pop in 30s delay all cds/trinkets (save MI is very important!)

Save FO if you are sure that you have 3 or more targets stacked. For example on Imperator fight use FO every CD (on HC you must save cd on "adds phase") but dont wait on big add - problems with cleve (range).
But in "adds phase" when you dps Warmages, when you dont have PC use FO on SMALL ADDS (tank should tank them in place, you dont kill them asap - dont wipe raid ) you get free 6s FoF spam.

Worth is save IN on 3+ targets.

[Frizz]

Can anyone explain to me why Primal Gladiator's Insignia of Dominance sims so high? The stat weights seem really weak (53 versatility/734 int for 20 sec proc). What is the proc rate of the trinket? Even something like Heroic Coagulated seems better.

[Frosted]

Can anyone explain to me why Primal Gladiator's Insignia of Dominance sims so high? The stat weights seem really weak (53 versatility/734 int for 20 sec proc). What is the proc rate of the trinket? Even something like Heroic Coagulated seems better.

It has a very low cooldown on the proc compared to most trinkets (55sec iirc).

[Llewllyn]

There is probably a way to make the calculation easy, like giving a coeficient to the peaks and using something like

Stats (passive+on use) from the trinket * stat weight * coef on peak
+
Stats (passive) from the trinket * stat weight * coef on valley

Would it not be easier to run a Sim either precisely 20 seconds long and take the stat weights from there or a sim where you repeat the opening CD every 20 seconds by removing the CD from spells? Then run another sim where you don't use any CDs at all. Then just use the different stat weights these give you times the uptime of each phase?

I hope I made sense here. Had this thought in the shower as I was about to head to work.

[cross34]

Hi,

When is it more beneficial to use Frost Bomb on a boss encounter instead of Ice Nova, and vice versa?

Also, same with Mirror Images vs Incanter's Flow.

Thanks!

[sundaewoop]

After a lot of mythic brackenspore pulls and finally killing him today, I am also wondering when it would be worth it to sync PC with FO instead of the other way around, if someone could sim that it would be awesome.

[Komma]

After a lot of mythic brackenspore pulls and finally killing him today, I am also wondering when it would be worth it to sync PC with FO instead of the other way around, if someone could sim that it would be awesome.

It is worth syncing. We noticed that several months ago while working out the APL.

[Frosted]

Hi,

When is it more beneficial to use Frost Bomb on a boss encounter instead of Ice Nova, and vice versa?

Also, same with Mirror Images vs Incanter's Flow.

Thanks!

Did you just ignore the OP?

[Frosted]

After a lot of mythic brackenspore pulls and finally killing him today, I am also wondering when it would be worth it to sync PC with FO instead of the other way around, if someone could sim that it would be awesome.

Sim what? sycning PC with FO instead of FO with PC..????

Edit - I see what you are saying now. yeah, komma already worked on that during APL development.

[sundaewoop]

After a lot of mythic brackenspore pulls and finally killing him today, I am also wondering when it would be worth it to sync PC with FO instead of the other way around, if someone could sim that it would be awesome.

Sim what? sycning PC with FO instead of FO with PC..????

Yes.

This is what method mages are doing on butcher in their kill video atleast.

In their kargath video blatty Is delaying PC for orb and kuznam is doing delay orb for PC, blatty ends up doing quite a bit more but I can't say that's the reason obviously.

[Frosted]

Interesting.

I'm not sure why you would delay PC though, unless it's a deliberate attempt to sync it with both FO and something like copelands (2min FO, 2min copelands CD) or IV (3min FO, but this is sync'd normally anyways?).

Unless he was just holding PC because he was busying DPSing the tiger? which is constantly moving, so using PC on it is a waste?

Delaying FO for PC is effectively the same number of FO uses as using FO on CD (due to how PC acts as an additional target for both FoF generation and damage re-directs onto the primary target), so it makes sense. I'm not sure what PC delay nets you besides a loss of PC uses...unless syncing it with something on 2min intervals is worth? I'm not sure I've seen anything on "delay PC for 2min copelands + FO burst." Could look into it though!

I guess you would get more effective FO uses? Which maybe with Fbomb is worth....hrm.

[sundaewoop]

Yeah, might be because of copelands.

And on butcher they end up with the same amount of PC's used in the end, they just do the 2nd "opener" at 3.30 instead of 3.00.

[Frosted]

yeah, depending on fight length you could end up getting the same # of PC uses. If the fight ends before the 4.5 min mark (which is where in a ~5min fight you would gain another PC for using PC on cd vs PC sync'd with FO) then it is almost certainly a DPS gain. You'd be gaining an effective FO usage vs. FO sync'd with PC, and with that fight length you'd not risk the loss of a PC usage.

[sundaewoop]

I'm seriously starting to wonder how good copeland really is when coupled with all these cd's, i have DMC3 atm so It doesn't really lineup with anything unless you delay PC for 45 secs and orb for 15 and use stuff at 2:15 mark, that means my final burst would be delayed until 3:45 :/

I'm gonna actually have to do some numbers to see what is optimal for butcher.

[Frosted]

Made a modified APL to do the syncing of PC to FO. Both use Copelands Clarity.

250s fight



260s fight



270s fight



280s fight



So sure, delaying PC to sync with FO can be a gain if you know the fight is going to end within specific 20s windows (prolly a bit smaller, since it's already falling behind at t=20). but if you cannot ensure that, it's a DPS loss. There are likely other windows like this, but it's not at all worth it to find them all I don't think.

[willemh]

For butcher mythic:

-0.03>mirror image+precast
0.00>opener
1.00>frozen orb
1.57>mirror image
2.00>frozen orb+crystal
3.30>frozen orb+crystal+icy veins+copeland+second potion
3.57>mirror image
4.00>beserk greater invis>iceblock

Or:

-0.03>mirror image+precast
0.00>opener
1.30>frozen orb+crystal
1.57>mirror image
2.30>frozen orb
3.30>frozen orb+crystal+icy veins+2nd potion
4.57>mirror image
4.00>beserk greater invis>iceblock

Both seem superior options over:
-0.03>mirror image+precast
0.00>opener
1.30>frozen orb+crystal
1.57>mirror image
3.00>frozen orb+crystal+icy veins+2nd potion
3.57>mirror image
4.00>beserk greater invis>iceblock

You gain 1 frozen orb this way and dont loose any crystal. I guess thats what people mean by syncing PC with FO instead of syncing FO with PC. It deffo seems worth it on a fight like mythic butcher where dps requirements are so strict and the fight length is set. Note that copeland has no effect on this since you always want to use it during your 'second opener' at 3.00/3.30 anyway since the fight doesnt last long enough for it to matter post enrage.

Anyway I kinda dislike this cooldown micromanagement as its extremely complicated with 1min cds, 2 min cds, 1.5min cds, 3min cds especially if you dont know exactly how long a fight will last. With thermal void gameplay is quite a bit more convenient.

[Laere]

Those trinket sims just seem all over the place.

I have stage 2 sandmans, not sure if it is worth to get to stage 3. Since the sims say H-Runestone and Pouch 3 > H_Runestone and CC. I mean its only a 200 dps gain.

[oomy]

Those trinket sims, you can use HC runestone and normal runestone??

Arn't they unique-equipped? If i'm right can you remove those duplicates to lessen the mess

[Chev]

Keep in mind that these Sims are run on a single target, patchwork style fight and the talent combination which is found to be best for that style of fight. Trinket ranking may well change based on multiple targets or high movement fights, which would prompt you to take other talents which may sync better with different trinkets. I guess what I am trying to say is don't rule a trinket out just because a graph said you can get 200 dps more with another combination.

[gameorg]

Made a modified APL to do the syncing of PC to FO. Both use Copelands Clarity.

250s fight



260s fight



270s fight



280s fight



So sure, delaying PC to sync with FO can be a gain if you know the fight is going to end within specific 20s windows (prolly a bit smaller, since it's already falling behind at t=20). but if you cannot ensure that, it's a DPS loss. There are likely other windows like this, but it's not at all worth it to find them all I don't think.

Go with mixed syncronisation.

FO and PC meet every third usage if used on CD. You can also save FFB and sync Water jet usage to PC's cooldown, so you have all procs when u dont have FO synced. Syncing 1 Proc each is no DPS loss and will result in a bigger dps gain.

I have not seen lines in simcraft for conditional usage of Procs right before big CDS are about to cool down like:
"If PC cd <5 and 1 FoF/1 FFB proc is up --> save them)" right?

I think the usage of Procs (or creating procs with WJ) matters alot if you want to calculate whether its usefull to sync or not. I also think there is only 1 scenario where syncing a difference of 30 sec in cds is good - when the fight ends before the next natural sync point (fourth/seventh/10th usage).

So id recommend this:

Sync at the start
use on CD in between
if the fight ends before 180 sec, sync at 90
Sync at the 4th usage of FO (180 sec)
use on cd in between
if the fight ends before 360 Sec, sync at 270
Sync ath the 7th usage of FO (360 Sec)

*And keep saving procs right before every PC usage. Maybe use water jet for that. Iam pretty sure 90% of the frost mages are doing that rotation already.

Common sense and personal DPS logs tell me its not useful to sync all the time, but when their cds are very close. (like <15 sec). For now simcraft has its limitations here. Its probably worth it though to put in some conditions for Proc Usage in combination with big cds, as those could increase the DPS in general.