Frost Opener?

[Iceshatter]

@Blugatti

Yes, I noticed. My new opener is:

1. Icy Veins + Potion + whatever i Specced
2. Frostbolt x2 + Water jet on Target
3. Crystal
4. Frozen Orb + 1st Ice Lance from Water Jet
5. 2nd Ice Lance from Water jet + guaranteed Ice Lance from Frozen Orb
6. Ice Nova x2
7. Ice Lance spam till Crystal ends.
8. Frostbolt x2 + Water jet on Target (goes off cooldown right about now).
etc.

[gameorg]

dont orb after using pc. orb right before.

If u stand at max range you dont waste your Ice Lance Proc but get it right when you use it.

7. I dont think its worth it to cast unprocced ice lance over Frostbolt, even with Cleave. Maybe its worth it to cast 1 more icelance of u have a crap ton of icicles stored, which is unlikely due to all the ice lances used earlier. So no.

You can also use 1 ice nova before the third usage of Ice lance, at that point you only have 1 ice lance proc up and its unlikely that u get 2 procs at 1 GCD imho. The DPS gain on that 1 is marginal though an still some risk left.

[Iceshatter]

I agree on the orb before cystal, but my FB is 1.9 sec cast. Is it really advantegous over 2 ice lances of which one or two might proc off orb (so far into the Cystal duration already)?

[Zrog]

Just from straight math - if you can fit 1 Frostbolt in (at 119% Spellpower), it's better than 2x unproc'ed Ice Lances at 40% Spellpower each (80%), and it's really close even if both of them hit multiple targets (40x2 = 80 * 1.5 = 120%).

Also - FBolt has a chance to proc FoF, but Ice Lances won't proc anything else (other than start Icicles shooting), so I would say that the Frostbolt is better.

[supervixen]

So many openers... I've just swapped to frost.

I thought casting water jet was a proc muncher? If not, what is the superior opener?

Cheers

[retsorf]

Water jet wont munch procs that aren't there, be logical on your timing and expenditure of procs.

I try and do what Iceshatter suggested, pretty much.

[supervixen]

And opener for Thermal Void talent?

[Azo]

So many openers... I've just swapped to frost.

I thought casting water jet was a proc muncher? If not, what is the superior opener?

Cheers

If you play with PC your frozen orb will in many cases give you two FoF-procs when it reaches target. If you start with waterjet you would've to spend those FoF-procs before FO reach target. That would force you to delay orb an PC a few globals often. If the boss wil be moved in start so you've to wait to put down PC and cast FO I can't see any bad with starting with waterjet if you can consume those FoF charges before you cast FO.

Waterjet is nice to've if you run out of FoF-procs during PC. You swap to boss and fish FoF-procs with waterjet which you then fire on to PC. I'm not sure if this is optimal play and it's not something you would do every time since you don't always go out of FoF-procs and IN early enough for it to be worth.

[Freez]

If you start with waterjet you would've to spend those FoF-procs before FO reach target. That would force you to delay orb an PC a few globals often.

What if you are sending orb from max range? Wouldn't you have enough time spend 2 FoF-procs on PC before FO reaches the target?

[Azo]

If you start with waterjet you would've to spend those FoF-procs before FO reach target. That would force you to delay orb an PC a few globals often.

What if you are sending orb from max range? Wouldn't you have enough time spend 2 FoF-procs on PC before FO reaches the target?

Travel speed is 28 yards/second (not sure but about), The range on FO is ~15 yards I think. FO triggers global cooldown. If I'm to cast two IL before FO hits the target I need 3 globals and if I also want to place PC I need a fourth. FO->IL->IL->PC is 4 globals.

I'm not certain on what opener is best. Quick look on hihg ranked logs some WJ on pull some don't. My opinion is that it comes down to if you can use the procs WJ get before you cast FO or not. If boss is to be moved in start so you've a few second I would say WJ, if not don't.

Then it's a personal preference to've WJ avaible during PC if I run out of procs and IN-charges a few seconds before PC run out. Only applied on single-target. On multiple target IL cleave anyway.

[Freez]

By the way, Simcraft doesn't WJ during opening.

[gameorg]

FO Doesnt create 2 Ice Lance Procs instantly on a single Target fight. You can use the first ice lance proc right before the FO Lance Proc, if u stand at close to max range. You will notice it that as soon as you use the lance the next proc arrives.

By the way, Simcraft doesn't WJ during opening.

But the person who wrote the algorithm most likely uses it during openings now. While simcraft is very usefull and very accurate for Scaling ranks, its not entirely optimal. I can name you a few tweaks to the algorithm which would increase the overall DPS.

There is no doubt that WJ before PC is a dps increase. Having 2 extra lances for PC is such a BIG dps increase that its out of discussion. Aswell as the fact that those frostbolts trigger your passive Trinkets.

Using FO before PC or while PC is debatable. Often you are not as lucky to be able to spam Ice lance Procs the whole duration of PC and the casual frostbolt on PC is really not that spectacular. In that case u might argue that risking to lose an ice lance proc is not worth it and cast FO during the PC. However, as you have to use atleast 1 Ice lance before you send your FO during PC, you will lose 1-2 sec of FO duration, with a possibility of reducing overall number of ice lance procs.

Go ahead and test it yourself if u can get off PC+ Icelance before getting the FO proc and then you have your answer wether you should cast PC or FO first. It is also worth mentioning, that haste (bloodlust, shards of nothing) will help you pulling it off fast enough.

[Freez]

I will not disagree with you. Personaly I am still using WJ before FO. I am just fishing for confirmation that it is actualy a DPS increas against what Simcraft does.

[Komma]

By the way, Simcraft doesn't WJ during opening.

But the person who wrote the algorithm most likely uses it during openings now.

I know as a fact that "the person" does not.

There is no doubt that WJ before PC is a dps increase. Having 2 extra lances for PC is such a BIG dps increase that its out of discussion. Aswell as the fact that those frostbolts trigger your passive Trinkets.

Judging from the number of people who aren't entirely convinced by you, I'd say there is quite a lot of doubt. It's fine to say that you have no doubt, but to convince others you need to bring up some solid evidence, instead of just saying "it is better". Just as you can name a lot of reasons why it might be better (ie. 2 FoF guaranteed for PC,), many others have named reasons why it might not be better (FO's first FoF munched, forced Icicle dump if you IL before PC, losing PC/FO uptime). The discussion is a stalemate until either side can provide supporting numbers.

[Mumrit]

And opener for Thermal Void talent?

http://altered-time.com/forum/viewtopic ... =784#p8693" target="_blank is still working very well for me.

[Frosted]

There is no doubt that WJ before PC is a dps increase. Having 2 extra lances for PC is such a BIG dps increase that its out of discussion. Aswell as the fact that those frostbolts trigger your passive Trinkets.

I'm not sold on this being true. Convince me?

[Arelly]

Hello,

I'm using something like this:
1- 2 seconds before pull i cast Mirror Image(MI) , Drink a Intelect Potion, Icy Veins (IV)
2- Start casting Frostbolt, and half way though use Water Jet(WJ)
3- Frost bolt again for the second Fingers of Frost (FoF) proc
4- Cast Prismatic Crystal (PC) on the boss feet and My Racial, i'm a troll ( If no Blood Lust ).
5- Cast one Ice Lance (IL)
6- Cast Frozen Orb(FO)
7- Cast IL again
8- By this time the FO already reached the boss
9- Cast all your FoF procs, Ice Nova, and Frostbolt if nothing is up..
10- At this time you have all your CDs down and you start your normal rotation.

I'm using as talents:
Ice Floes, Ice Barrier, Ring of Frost, Greater Invisibility,
Ice Nova, Mirrow Image, Prismatic Crystal.
As Glyphs:
Rapid Displacement, Icy Veins, Spliting ice, Illusion, Condensation, Momentum

What you guys think about that strat??

[Frosted]

I think you should read the tread.

[Xenost]

As i tried to use Fbomb recently on Tectus and ended up behind the fights I did with IN I need to understand things about FBomb; I first tried to come up with the best opener for Fbomb.

My problem with the opener is that I needed to put 2 Fbomb (because WJ + FO) so I think a good opener might be someting like this :

-Prepot + Mi + Precast FB
-0 WJ with the precast FB
-FB (if 2 FOF before FB hit -> IL)
-Fbomb
-IL
-IL
-FO
-(PC if talented)

before i was Fbombing before WJ and ended up needing to put it a second time for FO.

Is that opener good for Fbomb use?
Btw i found that Fbomb is really binding to use because if you need to switch on adds or thing after putting a Fbomb you are in a terrible position; maybe I'm just bad or not used to Fbomb but I can't gain dps over IN with this talent.

[Stakhanov]

To make things simple, one Ice Nova roughly equals to 3 FoF casts on a target w/ Frostbomb up on both single and multi-target, though FB deals slightly more AoE damage.

Without trying to go into great maths detail as to why IN > FBomb :

- Damage is roughly the same
- IN is "more" reliable since you don't need to sync WaterJet with it
- Both charges can be stored for burst damage regardless of how many targets are available, while strong burst with FBomb usually requires to line Frozen Orb with it.
- Dumping two INs is way faster than the whole FO + FBomb + 6 IL thing, which means your targets don't need to stay stacked for quite as long.
- It is in general much less of a hassle to periodically fire IN than constantly remember to refresh FB before casting IL