Alexstrasza's Fury and Darckli's Diadem

[Ronark]

Haven't seem much about the combination of these 2 items. For spread out AoE damage I can see the use of both talents over Flame On, but what about in other scenarios, like in M+? The helm is already used rotationally, so one would think that Fury might be the better go to? Compared to non-helm Fury, you dont have to be in Melee range for it to trigger and gain an additional 100% damage ontop of the Always-Crit mechanic.

[Falq]

Well I kinda confused us in this post since if I understand correctly you mean Darckli's Diadem legendary item and Alexstrasza's Fury talent choice. If I got you correctly I think you are right. Not sure if Alexstrasza's Fury gives Heating Up for each hit target (which results in HS proc on >=2 targets), or just always 1 HU proc.

Let's try to bring some wooden math in here:

Let's say you aoe for 1:00, and have 0 haste (just to devaluate DB and Alex Fury as much as possibile, by ending battle 1 sec before on DB run off), and AF DB only gives you one HU proc which is worst case scenario

Since in next path FP is quite overpowered ill focus mainly on HS procs since it's main source of this damage. With AF you managed to get during this time:

3 Breaths and 7 FB which results in 10 HU proc, in addition all your DBs critted as DB is already DPS gain on multi targets

With FO you managed to cast during this time:
10 FB which results in same 10 HU proc, but you didn't get extra crits from your DB.

This math is not 100% accurate and my change if asumtpion proven wrong, but I tried to prove Ronark's point by devaluating AF talent choice and even thou it came out on top.

[Ronark]

AF will only ever give 1 HU proc, as long as it hits a target and does damage (i.e. Can't hit immune targets).

The only issue I see is that DB doesn't generate any Ignites where you do get that extra damage from the extra FBs. Not to mention not using Flame On for single target although if the math for Flamestrike is valid (and we're still using Pyro) you'd see slightly higher HS procs since those Pyros can give back HUs.

[DyLemma]

I believe I saw a post on the actual forums and people with the legendary helm will probably be using AF. Not sure though, I hope (obviously it'll 100% be used on any sort of cleave because the guaranteed crit is insane). As I have the helm..on the other hand. I really think the bracers need toned down more, they are right back where they were like it makes 0 sense. Nerfed by only 25% but did they forget they buffed pyros base damage? Basically back where it was. It's killing my WoW vibe being a competitive player, I am easily capable of getting rank 1s and I am going for my 5th legendary and if don't get the bracers I'll probably debate on quitting for once in my 8 years of playing. It's so un-fun not being able to compete on logs (I enjoy logging on farm). Considering the math is out there for legendary chance past 4 (updated) it's like...you need to run over 500 mythic+ or some shiet for a 50% chance for a legendary. Then it keeps going...over 1000 or 1500 mythic + probably for next. I have seen MANY past good mages just disappear from logs because this expansion AP/legendaries. AF seems like a cool talent and I really how it's the go-to for helm users. Helm/bracers is a nasty combo.

[Unreal]

The only situation where I'd take AF over FO is during a constant aoe fight. Basically a fight where I could use dragon's breath on cd. Taking AF over FO in a single target encounter feels like such a handicap, you're basically swapping out a free fb every 8s for a heating up every 20s on gcd that deals more damage. Using DB on single target is barely even worth it on live, with pyro being severely buffed on ptr, I have my doubt that the helm is even a dps increase in a single target fight.

On another note, you have the lust ring+helmet which are third and second BiS. With your current score in mythic en, I doubt you'd be ranking in the top 50s with the bracers.

[Coos]

A big, but inadvertent nerf to the bracers has also occured in the removal of icy floes. Having to hard cast that pyro without being able to move is quite brutal, especially on progression fights earlier in raid tier (since those are less forgiving times).

As for this actual discussion, I do hope they can make AF attractive for non helm users. At least for helm users in aoe situations it appears strong. As was mentioned above, for AoE it will almost certainly always be taken as 100% crit on multiple targets means not only huge dmg, but also means you are instantly granted 5 stacks of pyretic incantation (assuming there are at least 5 targets). For short burst aoe like m+ this will be even more noticable. For those without the helm, I can see it probably gathering dust sadly.

I'd like to see more synergies like this introduced too, with legendaries effecting talent choices, as it definitely makes them feel more exciting and special. I may be alone in that opinion, and I know nobody asked so feel free to ignore this last part. <:)

[DyLemma]

The only situation where I'd take AF over FO is during a constant aoe fight. Basically a fight where I could use dragon's breath on cd. Taking AF over FO in a single target encounter feels like such a handicap, you're basically swapping out a free fb every 8s for a heating up every 20s on gcd that deals more damage. Using DB on single target is barely even worth it on live, with pyro being severely buffed on ptr, I have my doubt that the helm is even a dps increase in a single target fight.

On another note, you have the lust ring+helmet which are third and second BiS. With your current score in mythic en, I doubt you'd be ranking in the top 50s with the bracers.

Dragon's breath with helm IS a dps increase using it on CD ST. It's your highest hitting ability by far, mine does 1m. I can almost bet AF is the best talent all around with the helm. Guaranteed crit on DB every 20 seconds when you already use it in the rotation for ST. It'll do a good chunk of your damage if it crits every time. If it's not a pure ST increase, which I believe it will be with helm. I can't see how at all anything could beat it 2+ targets.

You're also underestimating the bracers, GREATLY. They are easily 100k+ dps increase on short 3-4 min fights when you get double proc on opener. They are more then insane. I could easily be parsing top 5 with bracers. I even almost got rank 1 mythic ursoc during progression when barely anyone had the bracers (we wiped at 0%). It's on my channel. Anyways, this isn't about me or you. It's about the talent. It's extremely strong for helmet users.

[Unreal]

It hits a bit over a million for me if I have 5 stacks of PI and rop up. My Pyro hits nearly 700k on the same condition, adding the generated igntie damage on top (2x15% = 30%) and we're speaking of 910k damage. Considering it doens't grant you a heating up, it is barely a st dps gain. In fact, I use it as a filler.

I've seen that video as I watch many of your videos and while you are a good player, you had heavy critluck on that pull. Another reason this addon blows, on top of rng gear (titanforged+legendaries) your damage output is also rng ("come on pls crit").

[Bradaek]

The only situation where I'd take AF over FO is during a constant aoe fight. Basically a fight where I could use dragon's breath on cd. Taking AF over FO in a single target encounter feels like such a handicap, you're basically swapping out a free fb every 8s for a heating up every 20s on gcd that deals more damage. Using DB on single target is barely even worth it on live, with pyro being severely buffed on ptr, I have my doubt that the helm is even a dps increase in a single target fight.

On another note, you have the lust ring+helmet which are third and second BiS. With your current score in mythic en, I doubt you'd be ranking in the top 50s with the bracers.

Dragon's breath with helm IS a dps increase using it on CD ST. It's your highest hitting ability by far, mine does 1m. I can almost bet AF is the best talent all around with the helm. Guaranteed crit on DB every 20 seconds when you already use it in the rotation for ST. It'll do a good chunk of your damage if it crits every time. If it's not a pure ST increase, which I believe it will be with helm. I can't see how at all anything could beat it 2+ targets.

You're also underestimating the bracers, GREATLY. They are easily 100k+ dps increase on short 3-4 min fights when you get double proc on opener. They are more then insane. I could easily be parsing top 5 with bracers. I even almost got rank 1 mythic ursoc during progression when barely anyone had the bracers (we wiped at 0%). It's on my channel. Anyways, this isn't about me or you. It's about the talent. It's extremely strong for helmet users.

I was using AF with the helm last night to test it and seemed to always do lower DPS than when I take Flame On. Just my personal anecdote but i'm not convinced it's better than just taking Flame on.

[Frantik]

The only situation where I'd take AF over FO is during a constant aoe fight. Basically a fight where I could use dragon's breath on cd. Taking AF over FO in a single target encounter feels like such a handicap, you're basically swapping out a free fb every 8s for a heating up every 20s on gcd that deals more damage. Using DB on single target is barely even worth it on live, with pyro being severely buffed on ptr, I have my doubt that the helm is even a dps increase in a single target fight.

On another note, you have the lust ring+helmet which are third and second BiS. With your current score in mythic en, I doubt you'd be ranking in the top 50s with the bracers.

Dragon's breath with helm IS a dps increase using it on CD ST. It's your highest hitting ability by far, mine does 1m. I can almost bet AF is the best talent all around with the helm. Guaranteed crit on DB every 20 seconds when you already use it in the rotation for ST. It'll do a good chunk of your damage if it crits every time. If it's not a pure ST increase, which I believe it will be with helm. I can't see how at all anything could beat it 2+ targets.

You're also underestimating the bracers, GREATLY. They are easily 100k+ dps increase on short 3-4 min fights when you get double proc on opener. They are more then insane. I could easily be parsing top 5 with bracers. I even almost got rank 1 mythic ursoc during progression when barely anyone had the bracers (we wiped at 0%). It's on my channel. Anyways, this isn't about me or you. It's about the talent. It's extremely strong for helmet users.

I was using AF with the helm last night to test it and seemed to always do lower DPS than when I take Flame On. Just my personal anecdote but i'm not convinced it's better than just taking Flame on.

I was wondering the same thing but instead I used latest sim and it was also lower than flame on for my gear so I didnt try it at all

[Spooky]

I testet allot yesterday @EN Myth. Helm+AF doesn't look that good. I also don't like Cinderstorm or Meteor while Raiding. For today i stick with cindling and FO, like 7.1.

For m+, with lower keys ,AF with Helm + Meteor should be better.

[Unreal]

The main problem with AF is that you're better off delaying your db in many encounters. You want to hit as many targets as possible, with that in mind DB simply doesn't function well as a key part of your rotation. I tested it a couple times and the only encounter it really proved to be valueable was helya on mythic. Probably because it was the only encounter I planned out.

AF doesn't seem to be that valueable in m+ either. Too many times you get across the problem that you either know there is a big pull ahead in the next 10s or you simply can't use db without changing your position.

[jahrastafari]

DB simply doesn't function well as a key part of your rotation

With DD and hitting just one target it's the 2nd highest DPET spell in my books. How do you figure that "doesn't function well"? The only offensive spell with more single target punch is Meteor.

AF might be lackluster as shit, but DB with DD certainly isn't.

[slasher016]

I have to agree with some others here. The talent is really weak even with DD. The heating up proc is basically meaningless since you get that and more with the flame on (the CD reduction.) The only thing good about the talent is the 100% crit rate, but considering most fire mages are running with 60% or more crit combined with the combustion, you aren't going to get an "extra" crit that often. I'm pretty sure after running it for a full EN and ToV clears that flame on is better even with DD. This talent needs a damage component, or it's just extremely situational -- even with helm. Without helm I can't see any scenario where it's useful.

[jahrastafari]

This talent needs a damage component, or it's just extremely situational -- even with helm. Without helm I can't see any scenario where it's useful.

Doesn't need an additional damage component. It hits hard enough. The problem is that the cooldown is too long. What it needs is a "and cuts the cooldown of Dragon's Breath by 10 seconds" component to make the Hot Streak component relevant.

Now you have it adding an additional Hot Streak proc every 10 seconds just like Fire Blast.

Take away the 'always crits' part, keep the 'adds to Hot Streak' and then add a 10 second cooldown reduction to DB and it would be perfect.

[DyLemma]

It's an extremely strong talent. Just because you don't find it to work well for yourself and it doesn't feel good to use doesn't mean it's not good. It's very good 2+ targets. Like I said before I didn't know the math single target but hands down the best talent for any 2+ targets w/ DB helm. DB was my #1 damage on helya with the talent. It's something you need practice with, for sure. Even myself, I still need more practice because I'm going to be using it a lot in nighthold most likely.

[slasher016]

This talent needs a damage component, or it's just extremely situational -- even with helm. Without helm I can't see any scenario where it's useful.

Doesn't need an additional damage component. It hits hard enough. The problem is that the cooldown is too long. What it needs is a "and cuts the cooldown of Dragon's Breath by 10 seconds" component to make the Hot Streak component relevant.

Now you have it adding an additional Hot Streak proc every 10 seconds just like Fire Blast.

Take away the 'always crits' part, keep the 'adds to Hot Streak' and then add a 10 second cooldown reduction to DB and it would be perfect.

That's essentially the same thing. Either extra damage or CD reduction serves the same purpose (more DPS.)

[slasher016]

It's an extremely strong talent. Just because you don't find it to work well for yourself and it doesn't feel good to use doesn't mean it's not good. It's very good 2+ targets. Like I said before I didn't know the math single target but hands down the best talent for any 2+ targets w/ DB helm. DB was my #1 damage on helya with the talent. It's something you need practice with, for sure. Even myself, I still need more practice because I'm going to be using it a lot in nighthold most likely.

The helm is extremely strong (particularly on Helya). But that has little to do with this talent.

[DyLemma]

It's an extremely strong talent. Just because you don't find it to work well for yourself and it doesn't feel good to use doesn't mean it's not good. It's very good 2+ targets. Like I said before I didn't know the math single target but hands down the best talent for any 2+ targets w/ DB helm. DB was my #1 damage on helya with the talent. It's something you need practice with, for sure. Even myself, I still need more practice because I'm going to be using it a lot in nighthold most likely.

The helm is extremely strong (particularly on Helya). But that has little to do with this talent.

It has a lot to do with it. I've done I'd say about 300 pulls on Helya, killed her. My DB damage DOUBLED what it usually is and I was running mirror image. Hard to say how much I would have done with RoP. Dragons is another example of when the talent is superior. I could go on and on where most fights it has the advantage. It's only a few thousand DPS behind FO when you have the helm on just a pure patchwerk.

[slasher016]

It's an extremely strong talent. Just because you don't find it to work well for yourself and it doesn't feel good to use doesn't mean it's not good. It's very good 2+ targets. Like I said before I didn't know the math single target but hands down the best talent for any 2+ targets w/ DB helm. DB was my #1 damage on helya with the talent. It's something you need practice with, for sure. Even myself, I still need more practice because I'm going to be using it a lot in nighthold most likely.

The helm is extremely strong (particularly on Helya). But that has little to do with this talent.

It has a lot to do with it. I've done I'd say about 300 pulls on Helya, killed her. My DB damage DOUBLED what it usually is and I was running mirror image. Hard to say how much I would have done with RoP. Dragons is another example of when the talent is superior. I could go on and on where most fights it has the advantage. It's only a few thousand DPS behind FO when you have the helm on just a pure patchwerk.

Your logs show a 91% crit rate on Dragon's Breath on Helya last week (prior to the talent existing). So the next week you got 9% extra crit. That's literally all you gained over flame on. And that is the 100% best case scenario fight for that talent and it was still only a marginal DPS upgrade. Like I said, it's still a situationally good talent, but it's not overwhelming good or better than flame on in most scenarios.