Fire Talent Comparisons, Stat Weights, Racials, Trinkets

[TLTeo]

I don't like PC on Operator because he moves a good deal, but i do run it on Maidens since it gives me more single target dps at the end of the fight and on the boats.

[gameorg]

Interestingly enough I'm starting to see some extremely high parses on Mythic Maidens and even Operator using PC. Most are still Kindling though. What are peoples thoughts on this? Its kind impossible to use Simcraft for an answer with the 2pc IB trick being hard to implement atm.

Example:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/tm ... &source=66" target="_blank

well its no secret that PC is better simwise (single target). Looks like that mage timed it perfectly to get huge combustions on the adds aswell. But in gnerall, the thogar dps is often missleading, it really does depend on how many other cleave classes you have.

Even though hard to perform, Hansgar might bei a PC fight in the end.

[Frosted]

There are preliminary sims that shows PC is stronger than kindling on 2/3 targets.

Nobody except me seems to believe them though, and they are not well known. So not many are trying it out.

[Garrod]

It just feels really hard to execute for some reason on those kinds of fights. It's a high risk vs high reward situation. I do see myself doing PC on Beastlord here soon because it's getting to the point where the adds die so fast even on Mythic that Kindling doesn't really seem worth it.

[Frosted]

Due to the addition of 2pc ignite to the default APL for Fire Mages, I've re-done the 1,2, and 3 target sims. Racials are also redone.

Additionally, the two and three target sections have been expanded. They now include Priority Target DPS comparisons (i.e. how much DPS you are doing to the boss while under a two or three target cleave scenario) and the two target section also has stat weights done for it.

The ilvl spectrum comparing the specs is now out of date for the data that handles Tier Enabled comparisons. This will be update shortly.

TL;DR - Prismatic Crystal master race has arrived.

NOTE: Proc rate on the pull for the T17 4pc is currently overvalued. This leads to a very minor inflation of DPS, but effectively does not change the relative strength of Fire to other specs, or talent comparisons. It just inflates the magnitude of the difference by a very small amount. This should be fixed before any public release of SimC is made including the 2pc ignite addition, but it is something to keep in mind when looking at this data.

[Caimion]

Hmm, am I missing something, or is there no reason to play Arcane if PC is playable?

[Chev]

Hmm, am I missing something, or is there no reason to play Arcane if PC is playable?

Single Target fire has always been viable, it is now more viable. With that said, a reason to play Arcane is Arcane gear syncs really well with multi target Fire gear sets.

[Wilderness]

Hmm, am I missing something, or is there no reason to play Arcane if PC is playable?

Arcane's single-target is still stronger, it has more on-demand burst, and is much better at target switching. It still has its place, but Fire does look to be more viable than it was previously thought for single-target.

[Garrod]

Yeah Arcane's on-demand burst and just flat consistent DPS throughout the course of a fight is still wanted. Fire's ST DPS is generally in very large spikes from PC/Combustion and in the time between the CD's it's fairly low.

[Searix]

So the fire sim is super hard, it's modeling double inferno blasting the pc, combusting boss/inferno, then retargeting the crystal and 2x Blast wave. Feels like we badly need macros.

On a related note what are we doing when we pop crystal but don't actually get our pyro chain?

[Methusula]

We talked about this in irc for a while. You are gonna have to make the best of it. If you pop crystal with pyro+heating up+trinkets and whatnot, fireball and pyro don't crit, you still do your double IB and take what you get. You risk wasting crystal if you try to rebuild ignite in the short time it's up.

[Frosted]

Updated scaling image.

[Killget]

With the 4 set Making Mastery The priority stat. I was wondering about the Weapon enchant DPS difference between Thunderlord and Bleeding Hollow. Or would it be similar to other cases where Thunderlord is better for ST and Bleeding Hollow for MT fights.

Mind stating what the Conditions were for the Enchants comparison?

And thanks for doing all these sims, Such great help to all.

[Wilderness]

The 4-set doesn’t make Mastery the best stat. For single-target, even with 4-set, Crit is the best stat (as you can see in the stat weights for single-target dps in the OP). So yes, the weapon enchant sims were done for single-target and if you were gearing for cleave/AoE then Bleeding Hollow would be the best option.

[Frosted]

With the 4 set Making Mastery The priority stat. I was wondering about the Weapon enchant DPS difference between Thunderlord and Bleeding Hollow. Or would it be similar to other cases where Thunderlord is better for ST and Bleeding Hollow for MT fights.

Mind stating what the Conditions were for the Enchants comparison?

And thanks for doing all these sims, Such great help to all.

They were done using Mythic Highmaul gear. All of the weapon enchants are close in value anyways, and as Wilderness said, crit = ST, mastery = AoE.

I do suppose for completeness sake I should re-do them with mythic BRF gear though. I'll get on that sometime this evening. Thanks!

[beatle]

The RNG kills me trying to do a double ib combustion. Most of time i fish for a normal pyro proc with combustion ready and when i start pyro chain it simply does not crit and i end up with a fireball+pyro no crit dot on target, or one crit if im lucky. Should i waste the combust combo for a 8k ignite (lets say 13k after double IB) ?
I have 32.5% crit fully buffed, thats all i can get from my arcane gear with crit boots, bracers and oregorger trinket.

So far i don't trust the sim so much for fire because it made no decision when to combust. The sim simply does the pyro chain and combust for any ignite, also the 2pc trick is not implemented in stable version and i am not sure how fine it works right now under development.
Having mastery enchant will boost our ignite but having no crits, the boost is weak. While the thunderlord can provide us a nice boost on crits on combust. Would be really nice to see some tests about this

[Frosted]

Err, the 2pc stuff is not "under development." It's quite well developed and that's why it's included in the default APL.

As for mastery enchants, the default fire sim runs Crit enchants. But even with matery enchants, the 2pcing is fine. It's just a ton of variation in DPS around the mean (which you are noting you see in game).

The sim crits just as often / not often as you do. It also attempts to judge the impact of the next spell (i.e. will this pyro actually increase my ignite tick size?) because continuing on with combustion building. It doesn't just blindly dump pyros and then combust. It also tries to judge "is this ignite too low even after 2pcing" and tries to build it further with an additional pyro if necessary.

I think you're vastly underestimating the 2pc / combustion logic.

[Frosted]

OP Updated for 6.2!

[Ducks]

Thanks for all your hard work Frosted!
Does the BiS gear change from Single Target to Two/Three Target Cleave? If so, would you mind posting the changes?

[Frosted]

Probably. But I honestly don't have a set put together for multi-target situations. Someone is working on updating the WoD Mage Gear spreadsheet ATM, which lets you put in stat weights and it'll give you BiS from it. Once he is finished, it'll take like 10s to put together a BiS set for Fire cleave.